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What’s the Difference Between a Wine Cellar, Fridge and Cooler?

Whether you’re just starting on your wine journey—buying bottles to have on hand for workaday relaxation or dinners with friends—or a die-hard collector religiously following the Wine Enthusiast Vintage Chart to find out when you can uncork that 20-year-old stash, knowing how to properly store your wine is crucial to your enjoyment. In this episode of the Wine Enthusiast podcast, our VP of Content, Dara P. Kapoor, and our Chief Revenue & Education Officer, Marshall Tilden III, explore the enemies of wine, the basics of wine storage, and how trends have evolved.

We also discover a few things:

  • What someone’s wine storage says about them
  • The most expensive custom wine cellar requests Marshall’s team has ever received
  • If one likes Caymus, one will love Dominus
  • Where Marshall would most like to bring his pillow 

Unlike other drinks, wine evolves over time, making storage conditions critical to its quality. But wine is also art, the kind you should feel proud show off to others, whether your collection is in your dining area or an invite-only underground situation. There’s a storage solution for everyone and every budget. To find out what’s right for you, contact us today!

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Episode Transcript

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting.

Speakers: Dara P. Kapoor, Marshall Tilden III, DWS, CSW

Dara P. Kapoor  00:08

Hello and welcome to the Wine Enthusiast podcast your serving of drinks culture and the people who drive it. I’m Dara Kapoor, Head of Content here at Wine Enthusiast. And today I talk to Marshall Tilden, our Chief Revenue and Education Officer about wine cellars, from the most outrageous to the affordable and practical solutions. We also explored how a wine cellar is different from a wine cooler and how to know exactly what you need. Hi, I’m Dara Kapoor, the VP of content at Wine Enthusiast and I am sitting here with Marshall Tilden the third, who is our Chief Revenue Officer and Education Officer–two chief titles is a big deal. And we’re talking today because I want to learn more about wine cellars. I started at Wine Enthusiast about two and a half years ago. I’m relatively new, a baby in the wine world if you will, and I’ve got some questions. I’ve got WSET Level Two certification, thank you very much to my coach here.

01:12

But there’s a lot that we do at Wine Enthusiast that I think from the general consumer or customer’s view, especially for new time customers, there’s some questions I think we can clarify about who needs a wine cellar. How do you choose a wine cellar, and I thought we would just kind of hang out on this Friday, have a bottle and talk what we do best here.

Marshall Tilden III, DWS, CSW  01:32

Yeah, I feel like we’ve probably had this conversation off air several times. But let’s uh, yeah, let’s get into the nitty gritty. Yeah, it’s such an important topic and for so many reasons, and it’s a fun topic. Should we start with first, the Wine Enthusiast way it’s Friday, and I did open this myself with one arm. So I apologize for the one arm antics today. I’m trying to keep up with my son and my nephew on the slopes on the board didn’t pan out so well. So we have a what we’re sipping here is a 2020 estate Dominus, a wine that we’ve had through Wine Express, different vintages they make mostly Napa. This is their Sonoma. Oh, no I’m sorry. This is a Napa 20 (2019 was a Sonoma), so this is all Napa fruit. 20 is a interesting vintage people have some, you know, connotations because of the smoke from the fires and it was too much smoke taint. I’ve had a lot of 20s that are fabulous. And I’ve had some 20s not so great. I’ll let you be the judge on this one. Cheers. Cheers.

Dara P. Kapoor  02:38

Those are Friday vibes. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It’s been a week and I’m coming right out of it.

Marshall Tilden III, DWS, CSW  02:46

 I’m going to, you know, let the cat out of the bag about your love for Caymus.

Dara P. Kapoor  02:54

And so I really do need to put a disclaimer when he’s finished on that.

Marshall Tilden III, DWS, CSW  02:58

But I do want to bring something you know, that people don’t know. Right? Well don’t know. Don’t you just don’t know that. It’s not available. And it’s a cool wine. It’s a really good quality canvas got really rich, you know, really dense fruit. Nice. Oh, God. Nice integration. Yeah. And it’s like, you know, a fraction of the price.

Dara P. Kapoor  03:20

Usually at Wine Enthusiast we will, you know, spit but today is Friday. I think I might take a few more sips. Well, let’s to get talking about wine cellars. Basic question, rudimentary, we use the term wine cellar and wine fridge and wine cooler interchangeably sometimes. Can you just lay out the differences between all of these terms?

Marshall Tilden III, DWS, CSW  03:54

So the there are differences. And it really comes down to protection against the five big enemies of wine. And that’s the difference of all kinds of wind storage levels, right, good, better best. And as you go up the scale, because you have temperature as the first enemy humidity, light, vibration, and odors. Wine hates all of that for longer term storage. So when you have just a wine cooler or wine fridge, you’re really just getting protection against temperature escaping at the right time. Right which most people that’s fine. You have bottles that you’re hanging on to for a few months a year you have it in your kitchen, you want to pull it out at the right temperature. Those typical wine refrigerators are not protecting against humidity. They might have some UV protection, the vibration might not be terrible, and they probably don’t have a filter or something that keeps the air clean to help with the odors. Right. So if you have your your wine fridge in your kitchen, yeah, and you’re cooking up garlic and onions, you open up that door to grab a bottle. Those garlic and onion odors are going in that fridge and over longer periods of time can affect the wine. Wine cellars, whether it be a free standing unit or a temperature controlled room, protect against all of the enemies of wine. So you have humidity maintenance or control, you have lower vibration compressors, so they’re not shaking, you have protection from odors, and you have more UV light protection on those glass doors are those like, you know, awesome glass enclosed cellers? Oh, yeah. Like those glass walls, right? The baller ones, exactly, so those have UV protection. So that’s really a difference is a wine fridge is just protecting against temperature or holding the right temperature. Wine cellers are taking all of the enemies of wine into consideration.

Dara P. Kapoor  05:39

Okay, if I’m going to invest in a really sophisticated custom cooling system, so I have a wine room that is baller, if you will, like real fancy doesn’t destroy my house. How long should I be collecting wine for like, what am I? Am I storing for 20 years? And by storing for 10 years? How much time– 100 years?

Marshall Tilden III, DWS, CSW  06:05

So I mean, I can answer this in like 20 different ways. The easy answer is that it depends. And the reason it depends is everyone is different. The majority of wine is not meant to age, the majority of wine that’s produced is meant for consumption. It’s like I forget the number…five 5% on wines 10% of the wines in the world are actually meant to age. Now it’s usually stuff that we’re enjoying, like this wine will age really nicely, although is drinking beautifully out of the box, right? So wine can age, five years, 10 years, 50 years, depending on what the wine is, the question then becomes, are you going to enjoy it? Are you going to enjoy that wine in 10 or 15 years when that alcohol kind of simmers down, and the tannins soften? And that fruit goes from fresh and vibrant, to dried, and those earthy notes start to come out? That’s why I have a cellar. And that’s why I’m so passionate about storing wine. And it’s important. So to answer your question, if you have that wine in your room for six months to a year, what happens when it’s not at the right temperature is it’s expediting the aging process, right? So if this wine could age for five to 10 years, which I think it could in 70-72 degrees, it’s gonna get there in six months to a year. Fair, right? So you’re not necessarily cooking your wine, but you are expediting the aging process, and it’s going to develop faster in a warmer temperature. And then the problem becomes wine gets to a level, it hits its peak, right, and it stays in that peak for a while it stays in that really optimal drinking window. When it goes up quick. It falls off quick. And so your drinking window is really small. And if you miss it, then you got a really nice bottle of vinegar that’s sitting in your beautiful wine room that you know.

Dara P. Kapoor  07:55

Yeah, you know, this leads me to my next question, how many consumers have all the information that you do?And in your opinion, are some of them just putting these systems in because they look cool, because a lot of them are gorgeous. And I can’t tell you that I would know how to age something for 20 years and when to pull it out and when to enjoy it. But I can tell you that some of these designs, especially like the under the stairs trend are so gorgeous. It’s artwork to me, so I would just want them to enjoy the art of wine and the beauty of it. Yeah. Do you really know what the consumers intent is when you are building these systems? And doesn’t matter?

Marshall Tilden III, DWS, CSW  08:35

Yeah, great questions. And in all honesty, it’s like, some do, some don’t. And some have had that disappointing experience. And that’s why they are back for the cooling unit. So and that’s why and that’s why our team why we do what we do, right? When a customer calls in and says Hey, I gotta downstairs, I’m gonna build a wine room. First question out of any of our wine stores, consultants mouth is great. How are you planning on cooling that room? Right? Are we going to be building up? Because the first and foremost question is cooling, to make sure that the consumer, the collector does understand that without a proper temperature controlled system or room, you’re gonna potentially risk all that beautiful wine that you’re storing? Right? Some don’t care. Some just want the aesthetics. They just want those display racks. So it’s all well and good. But our job is to educate every customer that calls in and say let’s make sure that if you have these old bottles of Mouton, yeah, these old bottles of Silver Oak or these old bottles, whatever they’re collecting, right? That they’re going to age properly the way you’d like them to. So in 10 years, you’re not just opening a really fancy label of cooked wine that you have that wine that’s evolved to where it’s supposed to be an aged the proper way. So how many out there are aware I think more than you know, I think more than you think. And I think a lot of it is because they’ve had an experience, so I can share mine. So before working at Wine Enthusiast, which is I’ve been here since 2005. My first small little 16 bottle wine refrigerator, compressor cooled wine refrigerator, not a wine cellar, small little guy. And I had a bottle of Barolo that I was saving for a special occasion and we went out for my parents for one of their big anniversaries. And I’d held it for like five or six years, in this little cellar, and I couldn’t wait to open it right? Because I’ve had it for five, six years, it’s gonna be delicious. And I opened it up. And when I opened I could feel the cork was a little bit dry. I was like, all right, see what happens. And it was shot, cork dried out, air got to it. And it was completely gone. It was oxidized. And it was the most disappointing. I’m almost crying, thinking it was such a disappointing. It was terrible. It was terrible. The disappointing feeling. Yeah. And I remember thinking I just never want to have that again. Right? And so I figured out, I looked at ways, how do I get humidity into my wine cellar. And you know, you can get like a wet sponge and put it in like a little tupperware. But there’s ways to makeshift, right. And I just, you know, I said to myself, that once I could get a collection, I wanted to make sure I really stored it properly for those ones that I wanted to age. And that’s what I recommend that I have, you know, our team recommend is, don’t think about your entire collection, because the majority of your collection, you’re probably going to drink in six months or a year, it’s going to be fine. But what about those one or two bottles that you’re planning on aging for five or 10 years? Because those are the ones that need the best protection. And those are the ones you have to think about when you’re thinking about your wine storage options.

Dara P. Kapoor  11:47

And what about if you you trade wine to and you collect it?

Marshall Tilden III, DWS, CSW  11:50

I mean, of course investment wise, yeah, I mean, when you have a if you’re selling off your wine, you’re selling models, and you have images and video of it in a proper temperature controlled environment in a cellar, you’re adding value, you get a top dollar for it, you know, as opposed to it just sitting there, ya know, it makes a big difference. People know.

Dara P. Kapoor  12:08

So if a customer is interested in exploring their options, and they don’t know where to start, just walk me through the process of, I want to go to Wine Enthusiast. I need a wine storage solution. I want it to be temperature controlled. I’m thinking I want something more designed. What’s that process? What does the consumer do?

Marshall Tilden III, DWS, CSW  12:33

 So the first question, they do exactly that, right? They look at our catalog, they’re looking online and say, you know, I got however many bottles I need to store. Let me let me you know, figure out what we need here. And so, you know, the first question that will always ask how many bottles you have, right? What’s your collection at — 20 bottles at 50 bottles, 500 bottles, because you always want to get a storage solution that’s a little bit bigger than what you have. Because you’ll always outgrow it you have whatever you have, it’s if you get a 50 bottle cellar, you get 100 bottle cellar at some point, you’ll have 10 bottles on top of the cellar, you’ll have 30 bottles sitting next to it, you always outgrow whatever celler, so you want to get something that’s probably 20 to 50% more than what your current storage is. So you figured out your capacity, then, do you have a room set in mind? Are you planning on building a wine cellar, and if you are, we want to discuss all that goes along with it. This is going to be a construction project you’re gonna have to build out a room with a certain kind of material, a certain kind of insulation, we’re going to need vapor barriers, we’re going to need to construct the right cooling unit space and have a cut out. So you know Are you ready for a construction project if you’re going to build something into your home, right? turns people off sometimes and but sometimes it’s exactly what they want. They have their whole basement they want to take a corner of it build a cellar, fantastic which usually for like 500 bottles or more is where you start entertaining that because the truth is, the costs are prohibitive, designing racking, wine cellar cooling system, the construction, the installation, all that kind of stuff. You know it’s it’s not inexpensive to do especially these days with cost of materials and labor is what it is. So if you look at a cost per bottle, you’re going to be you know 20 to $30 Almost minimally in building a cellar in your home. So we want to just have that conversation and make sure that people are aware upfront before you go down a rabbit hole.

Dara P. Kapoor  14:30

So you’re really giving them what they should really know and not taking advantage of what they don’t know.

Marshall Tilden III, DWS, CSW  14:36

Yeah. The other reason is that if you have a few hundred bottles, 200-400 bottles, there’s a lot of great wine storage cellar refrigerator store. Freestanding, we used to call it. Freestanding wine cabinets, but it is a really good descriptor, right? It’s a it’s a cabinet a temperature controlled wine cabinet that will display your wine like the VW we’re looking at here, right? That will protect your wine that is seamless. So, but it’s an easy process, right? You figured out your capacity, 400 bottles, you need a couple of units, they look beautiful. They come in the house, they bring it in, and you’re done in a day. Building a wine cellar is a project. Now, it’s a room in your house, it’s a sense of pride, it’s a sense of pleasure. It’s an entertaining area, all those kinds of things. So but we just want to lay out, okay, here’s what Option A is going to be doing all this and how many bottles you can store. But here’s option B, that might cost a little less, give you a similar if not equal storage environment for your wine. And by the way, you know, it’s going to take a day, not three months. So that’s really the purpose. And then we get into the nitty gritty, what’s the collection? How long do you need to store your wines for? We’re What’s your electrical situation, right, especially for a wine cellar cooling system, that’s going to be, you know, maybe hardwired into the electrical outlet. So, so our wine stores consultants aren’t just, you know, looking through what cabinet makes sense. They have to know how to design so design work, they have to know HVAC, you have to know cooling, how far the ducts gonna run? Where’s the electrical? Right? Where are the suction lines, where’s the liquid line gonna go. So there’s a lot of detail that they will go through with the customer as well as the customers. Usually a collector has contractors and builders and HVACs of their own that will conference call in will have meetings with to make sure that the plans, the architectural plans that they’re looking at, you know, match up with what we want to do in that cellar section. So it’s technical.

Dara P. Kapoor  16:46

And all this is for free? The advice, you get?

Marshall Tilden III, DWS, CSW  16:49

Sure is.

Dara P. Kapoor  16:51

 So I can just ring up Wine Enthusiast, or go on the website, I can find a way to contact these representives?

Marshall Tilden III, DWS, CSW  16:58

It should be the easiest thing that you’ve ever done in your life. If it’s not, we’re not doing our job.

Dara P. Kapoor  17:04

I’m gonna check that. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Marshall Tilden III, DWS, CSW  17:07

But yeah, so your, your The consultation is free. Once we get into the design, and then there’s revisions and things like that, then there’s, you know, there’s certain charges that come about for it, but they’re to be honest, it’s more just to pay for the time that goes into design work, right. But to get the consultation, I mean, I imagine not everybody really knows what they need or understands what they need. So you can have that free conversation with somebody 30 minutes an hour, however long it takes for them to be educated on what they need. That’s our job. I mean, it really is our job.  And people will do it, you know, years out sometimes, right? Like, hey, I’m gonna be moving out of my house in the next year or two. And, you know, I just saw this house on Zillow. And it looks like I could put a wine cellar in there, we start the design process. I mean, we do need some dimensions, you need some some basic information to start the process. But yeah, that’s what we do. We want to, we want to educate, and we want to help people be excited, right? This is where we sit, nobody really needs a wine cellar. So it’s not a necessity, this is a luxury. And, and it should be fun. And it should be educational, and it should be someone enjoying the entire experience from start to finish. And that’s really what we try to do.

Dara P. Kapoor  18:17

I mean, I’m biased because I work here. But I feel like that’s what you all do. I work on the media side. And I work with Marshall’s team more and more every day. So I get the education, I’m learning how they do sales. And I just know working with you, how nice you are about explaining things, how much time you’ll take to explain things and then the passion you have, it’s infectious. That’s kind of the cool thing about wine, right? It just brings all kinds of levels of people together. And we can still enjoy something for different reasons.

Marshall Tilden III, DWS, CSW  18:46

Yeah, you’re so right. And thank you and I appreciate that and it is passion that I carry over that my wife you know wants to kill me at times because it’s work, but in other times it carries through to her too when all of a sudden she has a glass and is like oh, this is great. What is it? And then oh, the eyes open right? Everything perks up a little bit right. I compare it to golf in a lot of ways of what you just said because we can be on completely different levels of what our knowledge and how our appreciation goes but you and I can still sit here and really enjoy this bottle of wine the same the same as when you go play golf. I go play it Rob. He kills me. When Rob and I go out we have a great time even though he beats me by 15 strokes because we can play the same game together and appreciate the same game together and enjoy each other’s company together even at different levels. So that’s that’s exactly what we’re trying to do here with making sure your collections are as enjoyable as possible. No matter what your need is. We have to enjoy this what we’re doing right or what are we doing.

Dara P. Kapoor  20:01

So now we’re gonna get into more of the really fun stuff. In my humble opinion. You said you’ve been doing this since 2005? Yeah. How have the trends in wine cellars changed over that time period?

Marshall Tilden III, DWS, CSW  20:45

When we first started, storage was … wine cellars were beautiful yes, but capacity was king: How many bottles could you store? It was capacity capacity. And somewhere maybe a decade or so ago, maybe a little bit less, all the sudden… There were always display shelves, options, right, you could always put a display shelf outside one of the cabinets to look nice. But inside, they didn’t really care about the labels, they wanted to get the bottles in there. Display shelves didn’t sell because it was like, Oh, you put a display shelf, the bottle is gonna tilt up, you’re gonna lose a case of storage in there, forget it, I don’t need it. And then all sudden, this label forward, this label view kind of thing started coming out. And you know, there’s these VintageView racks and then the display shelf started to gain a little bit of traction. And, you know, I give credit up to to Adam Strum, Wine Enthusiast cofounder, who put up put a finger on that and said, we’ve got to we got to do something with this. He’s like this is the trend and this is happening. And hence VinoView was born. And all of a sudden, people wanted to show their displays. They wanted to show their labels, they want to display their labels, they wanted those display racks with those glass walls. And it really hasn’t changed since I mean, this is like you said your new wish to use it. It’s what you’ve seen since you’ve been here, right? And people want to see their label. And I think a lot of it is labels have come a long way too. Wineries are putting more into their packaging and into their display. And purposefully right, it’s a work of art and sometimes they even have you know, artist collaborations. There was a multi temperature trend when I first started, where units would be red wine service up top, storage in the middle and, and white wine service on the bottom. Right. And it’s still sometimes used for commercial, but it’s really moving more and more towards just aging now, right even dual zones … all wine stores at the same temperature, red wine, champagne, port, whatever it is 55 degrees 53 to 57 degrees. The only thing you need dual zone for is service because white wines are served colder than reds. So if you’re aging wine and storing for long term, everything is single zone, one temperature. The trend away from multi zones, dual zones are still there, because especially if you have it in your kitchen and your dining room and you want white white wine ready to pull out to serve, it makes sense. Dual zone is great. But more often than not what we’ll see is multi storage solutions in a home. For example, downstairs is what they’re aging. That’s the collectibles. Up top is what they’re going to be drinking in the next few months.

Dara P. Kapoor  24:29

One other question about these trends, do you think they are reflective of the wine industry trends at the time also? I know Adam has been great at educating us on you know why Wine Enthusiast even started as a company back when it did in 1979 wine wasn’t as popular as it is today, it wasn’t as accessible either. So when you’re saying these things to me, it makes sense. Okay, it was about functionality. Now, I think years later, it’s a status symbol. So not only are there artistic collaborations on labels. But how much of that is a response to the trend of consumers wanting to show off?

Marshall Tilden III, DWS, CSW  25:09

It’s a really good point. The answer is yes. I think it does have to do with what, you know, the trends are in the industry. And to your point, one of the biggest ones that I forgot to mention was the glass enclosed wine cellar in the living room. Right? Yeah. You see it all the time. And those are not for Photoshoped wine cellars. Someone’s got ,in their living room on the back wall, there’s display racks, this big glass enclosed door with the big French doors. And it’s a huge trend right now, for that exact reason people want to show you.They want to show off their their collection. Others want to bring people into their passion, wines are part of their life. And when they sit down for dinner or before dinner and they sit down on their couch, they open a bottle of wine. And it’s their way of, you know, feeling like they’re constantly ensconced in wine culture.

Dara P. Kapoor  26:06

I am sure in your years of doing this, you have worked for celebrities. They could be in the industry industry celebs, they could be Hollywood celebs, sports celebs… Just tell us, for all the voyeurs out there, what are some of the craziest, most expensive features people have requested?

Marshall Tilden III, DWS, CSW  26:32

What’s really interesting, is that it’s usually not the celebs and the stars that want the craziest features. Let’s face it, we know people in finance make a couple bucks, true titans of industry, they got a couple of dollars to throw around. So those are usually the ones that are the all out, pimp my cellar kind of thing. In terms of I’ll hit the celebrity thing, and most of them really don’t want to be shared, but we can just say one of the most beloved, you know, morning radio/TV show hosts, who lives in New York, was kind enough to let us do his cellar. And one of the cinematic icon boxers of our time is also a customer. I think the truth is, of all the crazy asks in the crazy designs, it’s these folks that are super passionate about their homes, more than wine. And what I mean by that is … one of my customers had a celler designed and doesn’t drink wine, but his home because of who he was, and the entertainment that he did, his home needed a wine cellar.  And it was one of the most expensive. He loved to entertain, he loved to welcome people into his home and show off. He had so much pride in his home that he wanted every particular centimeter of that wine cellar to be perfect. And it is and it’s something that we that we’ve gone and shot and videoed and you can see on our website, and he’s got a glass wall that covers the whole front. Now we usually use half inch thick glass. Glass does not insulate well. So you have to upsize cooling units. And there’s values and equations that we do, but he wanted three quarters inch glass. I said well, you’re only gonna gain like, you know, a half of an R value. It’s not going to add a lot of insulation value. He said, it doesn’t matter, it’s gonna look richer, it’s gonna look thicker, and it’s gonna look better on my wine cellar. So yeah, I said well, I said it’s gonna be really difficult to get in here because glass is heavy. He goes, don’t worry, I have people that can. He wanted raised panels ceiling built out of specific wood …  the detail he had on every single thing was amazing. And and he spent for it, but that’s what he wanted.

Dara P. Kapoor  26:34

What’s the most somebody has spent on a celler? Like how high can these prices go?

Marshall Tilden III, DWS, CSW  29:24

We’ve gotten close to like half a million on the celler, which is  for someone like this. And for now his collection has grown and he actually has started to drink wine since he got his wine cellar. But when you have a collection that could be 3 million, 5 million, 10 million, when you look at a percentage …   It’s like when you have a EuroCave that is $4,000, $5,000 and you have $20,000-$40,000 worth of wine in there, the equation is kind of the same. A 2,000-3,000 bottle wine cellar for close to half a million dollars when you’ve got  we $10 million worth of wine. That that equation still works out to why it works in the home and why it’s so important for that particular collection, especially if they’re investing and then selling it off. And for those who don’t know, EuroCave is  is the premier wine cellar that’s made in France. Handmade. They’ve been around since 1976. Wine Enthusiast is their exclusive distributor here in the United States. And it does take into consideration all of the enemies of wine. It has humidity maintenance, it has the lowest vibration, it’s got the best UV protection, it has charcoal filter. So when we’re talking about true wine cellars that are cabinets, EuroCave is really is the creme de la creme.

Dara P. Kapoor  29:50

That’s good to know for when I have disposable income.

Marshall Tilden III, DWS, CSW  30:50

Yeah, well, you go up the wine cellar chain, just like anything else. Start with a small and then you move up and then the next thing you know, you’ll be getting your downstairs all built out. 

Dara P. Kapoor  31:04

My first step has been this under the counter Wine Enthusiast [Prestige] fridge. And now now I’m thinking what’s next?

Marshall Tilden III, DWS, CSW  31:16

It’s a gateway fridge. It’s like anything else. Going back to golf, you get your first set of sticks and you’re like yeah, good, it’s fine. You stick with those forever. But also did you get caught with that bug? You’re like, I need a better driver. I need a better putter and also new clubs.  Your tastes get more sophisticated. And so does your experience.

Dara P. Kapoor  31:56

What can you tell about a person based on how they store wine?

Marshall Tilden III, DWS, CSW  32:06

There’s kind of three different types of collectors. There’s the entry level collector like yourself–loves wine, loves the experience, enjoys drinking and just need something to store those 20-40 bottles at the right temperature. Once you have that small wine cellar, it gives you that little bit of pride, like, hey, I just I just upped my game, I got a wine cellar. You’ve come to the next level compared to everyone with an 8-bottle rack in the kitchen. And so that entry level wine drinker to me, is the one who starts spreading the word, hey, guys, this is fun. And when you put this wine in the wine cellar, it kind of changes the experience overall, when you have it at the right temperature and you’re pulling it out at the right temperature because it does make a difference. Serving temperature makes a difference. Room temperature is not 70 to 75 degrees. When people say red wine should be served at room temperature that’s not the right room temperature. Room temperature is like 60-65 degrees. So when people have their rack in their kitchen, and it’s 75 degrees, and they pull it right out and serve it, it is too warm. And that’s why those wines can taste very high in alcohol. Alcohol comes out more when wine is warm. Then next you have the enthusiast or the collector. These people have like 500 to 1000 bottles, could be a handful of cabinets, could be a small wine room, could be the under the stairs. And now they have a collection where they have a handful of bottles, maybe even half of their collection, that they are aging for a purpose. They are storing for an occasion, they are maybe storing some to sell, maybe they’re dabbling with, you know, an investment purpose for some of their wines. They care about their celler from a protection point of view, but they are not needing to have it be a big show off, showcase seller. So these are people that have like, you know, the 1000 bottle cellar in their basement. I think I fall into this. I have a EuroCave and I have another small one in my kitchen. I probably have 250 300 bottles, most of which I’m opening and going through but if I have about, you know 25-30 bottles that I’m hoping to open with my children. They each have a shelf in my EuroCave. So those are some collectibles that I have. And so that’s that kind of next level of a collector. And those people are the people that go to Napa, the people that take their wine trips, that join the wine clubs, that want to bring that wine culture back into their house, right. And then you have the show off. You have the the person that really wants to show and display not only their wines, but their cellar as well. They want that glass wall, they want to show how cool their cellar is because their home is that sort of a home. And God bless. Right? People will have the, you know, wine cellar next to the indoor tennis court and the media room next to it. They still might be the ager and the investment purpose and all that. But they may not be. They might just have that cellar in their house because the house needs that kind of cellar. And then that ties into what else are they into–what other hobbies do they have? Because more often than not, you’ll find those hobbies within the wine cellar or outside of the wine cellar. Signed autographed jerseys. And football jerseys and, you know, memorabilia from movie stars and things. So  they’re now taking their hobbies and they’re intertwining them within that wine cellar. And that becomes part of that.

Dara P. Kapoor  37:12

Wine is the fabric of life, the fabric of your house.

Marshall Tilden III, DWS, CSW  37:19

It becomes a matter of means and space at that point. And that’s part of what we do, part of that consultation. Where in the house is  this going? And what are you looking to do? And we will ask those questions. Do you want to show off all of your wine? Or are you just looking for a functional wine cellar and somewhere to store it at the right temperature?  And so we try and gauge where those customers are from the beginning, so we know what direction to take them in their cellar journey.

Dara P. Kapoor  37:59

One last question for fun. Whose collection would you be willing to lose your other arm to access?

Marshall Tilden III, DWS, CSW  38:10

I want to get in the basement of DRC. Domaine de la Romanée-Conti in Burgundy is the most expensive and arguably the best Burgundy produced in the world. And I’ve never been, I’ve heard stories, I’ve heard rumors that wine cellar has got relics that go back to like the 1800s when they like, you know, were first starting producing in Burgundy. And I mean, I’ve tasted one of their wines once and like it was knee buckling, right? You can’t believe like a wine can taste like that. So, it’s not a personal individual seller, but if I could, you know, bring a pillow and a blanket down there for a couple of days, I’d be alright.

Dara P. Kapoor  39:10

And is there any celebrity or somebody in the industry’s collection you’re curious to see?

Marshall Tilden III, DWS, CSW  39:14

LeBron’s got to have some celler. Like I would assume with what he’s doing, and God bless him for being such a great ambassador of wine right now, he’s he really is enjoying it. He’s putting it out there in so many different ways. Yeah, I’d love to go into his cellar with him.

Dara P. Kapoor  39:17

Anything else you want to say before we close out?

Marshall Tilden III, DWS, CSW  39:18

One thing I will just leave with is, you know, wine evolves. It’s a cheesy line, but I love it, that line from Sideways that Virginia Madsen says, you know why she loves wine, because it’s always evolving, and it tastes different. You know, any day that you would open it, this will taste different tomorrow and different in a year. And that’s, to me, why I’m so passionate about wine and wine storage. I love the journey. I love the evolution. I love to have a bottle of this now and a bottle in a year and how has it changed and how is it different? And there’s just nothing else that does that. There’s nothing like wine that elicits that emotion. There’s nothing like properly having the right environment for storage to really enhance that experience. And if we’re not living our best life with our experiences then what are we doing?

Dara P. Kapoor  41:21

That’s beautiful, man. I dig it. Thank you so much, Marshall. This has been awesome. Cheers. Yeah. Cheers. Have a great weekend, everybody. Thanks.

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