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Wine Enthusiast Podcast: Is Wine Art?

In this episode, we go a little deep and talk about a somewhat philosophical question. Is wine art?

To start, we have to define art. Does it have to involve the use of your senses? Must it engage your mind in some thoughtful way? If wine is art, does it matter that some people drink it for intellectual stimulation, while others simply want refreshment or relaxation?

Wine drinkers often romanticize the art and poetry of winemaking, but it’s impossible to ignore the science behind wine production. At the end of the day, perhaps wine is just a product, a commodity, based in science and with a clear method for optimal production?

Care to fall down this rabbit hole with us?

Managing Editor Lauren Buzzeo speaks to Winemaker/Vineyard Manager Rachel Rose of Bryn Mawr Vineyards in Salem, Oregon. Rose holds a bachelor’s degree in molecular, cellular and developmental biology from the University of California, Santa Cruz, as well as a master’s degree in oenology and a post-graduate diploma in viticulture from the University of Adelaide in South Australia. Rose previously worked at a Biotech lab before falling into the passion-fueled but also scientifically complex world of wine and winemaking.

From field to glass, the creative and chemical aspects of it all, we discuss the reality of making wine, and if what’s in the bottle can truly be considered art.

Click here to check out reviews of Rachel’s Bryn Mawr bottlings, or visit our wine and culture package to read more about the intersections of wine and art.

Episode Transcript

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting.

Speakers: Lauren Buzzeo, Rachel Rose

Lauren Buzzeo 0:09
Hello, and welcome to the Wine Enthusiast Podcast, your serving of drinks culture and the people who drive it. I’m Lauren Buzzeo, the Managing Editor at Wine Enthusiast, and in this episode, we’re talking about a somewhat nebulous topic in the wine world, wine art. So much talk about wine romanticizes about the art and the poetry of its creation, but it’s simultaneously impossible to ignore the science behind its production. In this episode, I talked to winemaker and vineyard manager Rachel Rose of Bryn Mawr Vineyards located in the Eola-Amity Hills near Salem, Oregon, about the reality of making wine and if it can truly be considered art, or is really more of a science based commodity. But first a word from today’s sponsor. There’s a sizzling lineup of cool sips at Total Wine and More. We’re talking summer’s greatest hits you’ll want to put on repeat, like our top 12 wines under $15. And you can raise a glass to America with a star spangled selection of pours made in the USA. Next, do yourself a flavor with ready to freeze cocktail pops and fun, fizzy hard seltzers. Pineapple mango, anyone? Here’s a recipe for a delicious summer evening: Take warm weather, smoked ribs, and just add Bordeaux. Let your imagination go grill crazy. From good old fashioned hotdogs to turkey burgers with all the toppings, you can’t go wrong with Chardonnay. And when it comes to seafood, salmon and tuna swim nicely with fruity and fresh reds. So no matter if you’re cooking out or chilling in, you’re sure to find cool prices on over 8,000 wines, 4,000 spirits and 2,500 beers in store or at

So every year Wine Enthusiast releases an issue that’s centered around the concept of the intersection of wine and culture. And what do we mean by culture? It’s basically different interpretations of various art forms, whether it’s visual art, or film or music. But we always end up having this conversation about the question of if wine itself is art. Because we all know that there’s a lot of science and a lot of technical savvy that goes into actually producing the bottles that we know and we love and we drink on a regular basis. But yet so much talk about wine romanticizes the art and the poetry of its creation. But again, it’s simultaneously impossible to ignore the science behind its production. So in this episode, we really wanted to dive into this existential conversation, if you will, to talk about is wine art? And we have the pleasure of being joined today by winemaker and vineyard manager Rachel Rose from Bryn Mawr Vineyards out in Oregon, to talk about the reality of making wine and if it can be truly considered art or more of a science. So Rachel, thanks for joining us today.

Rachel Rose 3:15
Hi, thank you for having me.

Lauren Buzzeo 3:18
So let’s kick this off by telling me a little bit about how you came to the wine world because I think you have such an interesting background. And again, I think it’s perfectly suited to this overall conversation that we’re looking to have. So how did you get into winemaking?

Rachel Rose 3:36
Yeah, well, I got into wine by way, really, of my love of the culinary world, as well as my background in science. So I can say right now I’m putting a pin in my my beginning journey into the wine world by going all the way back to Santa Cruz, California. I lived there while I was studying molecular cellular developmental biology. So I am by training a scientist and a total nerd. I began my formal education really thinking I was going to be a researcher. After college, I started working in the biotechnology field actually worked in immunology. And it was very, very interesting and I liked it. However, I just had this nagging sense that it wasn’t going to be fulfilling enough for me and it was also happening about that time so I was in this fruitful valley of California. So, fresh produce was abundant, amazing farmer’s market. And I really just started to follow what was happening all around me in the culinary scene and the restaurants. And then of course, where there’s food, there’s wine. And so I just started exploring why. And we had great markets with great wine sections. And I would just talk to the wine spirits, I’d have my like, fillet of whatever I was doing, and I just be like, hey, what goes with this, and so I just really started at this very basic point on my own in my spare time, and it’s just as a pleasure. And then I kind of wanted to take a little bit of a deeper dive. And so I decided to spend my weekends working for the original Bonny Doon. So in Bonny Doon, Santa Cruz, California. So I actually started working in the tasting room. And I was just blown away by like, the obscure varietals and all these weird wacky wines. And one of the most pivotal points along this early discovery was when we had someone come in from the wine cellar who was going to tell us all about the new releases. And he brought like a little vial of unfinished wine, I think it might have been as tanker barrel sample, or a few of them, and just heard explaining to us in the tasting room all about like how this wine was made, and like talking about yeast and bacteria, and at that moment, I just was like floored because up until that point, I hadn’t really realized that there was science involved. I just thought about like geography and growing plants and grapes. I hadn’t really thought about like fermentation kinetics, and cell division and all of these things that were so much more familiar to me at that point. But that was also the moment where I’m like, ‘Ah, I can do this. This feels a little closer to home.’ So that was just a real a-ha, pivotal moment for me. And from there, I kind of played around with wine a little bit more. I took some online classes through UC Davis that covered winemaking as well as wine regions. And I’m like, Whoa, this is history. This is geography. This is science. This is sensory examination. Whoa, this is huge. And I took my deep dive when I decided to get on a plane. Well, I did apply to school before that, but essentially, I decided to embark in a professional wine career when I took a plane to Australia and I actually went down under to receive my Master’s Degree in Enology. So the chemistry of winemaking. And while I was there I actually started by studying viticulture, because of course that makes the most sense for you. Of course, you got to study the grapes to know how to make wine. That just seemed like the most obvious thing to me. However, as I clearly became to understand that there were and can be two separate camps of viticulturalists and winemakers. So anyways, I I do have a Bachelor’s of Science in molecular cellular developmental biology. And I have a post bachelor’s degree in viticulture and grape growing, so that’s grape growing and a Master’s degree in enology. So that’s the academic side of this journey and how I got into it. How I came to be at Bryn Mawr, well, that’s kind of a different story. I really fell in love with cool climate varietals when I lived in Adelaide, so I was just really, really loving the Pinot Noir and the Chardonnay and especially the Riesling, especially in the Clare Valley. So I, I worked in New Zealand and I came and I worked in Oregon because I was really seeking more cool climate growing conditions and I just found myself wanting to move to France. Unfortunately, the visas were a little hard to get so I decided to go to the new world Burgundy, which is Oregon. And then I worked for Ponzi, and I also worked for Penner-Ash and kind of going back and forth between the northern hemisphere in Oregon and the southern hemisphere in New Zealand and Australia until finally, I found this cute—well, it wasn’t cute then. I found this lovely vineyard to really get to exercise all of the things that I had been studying and learning and apprenticing to do. Some charismatic owners who had big ideas for the future. And it was very humble beginnings, though, there was old friend down mobile home that I called home for a number of years. The property came with some roosters, I got to practice all my tractor driving. And yeah, it’s it’s pretty, pretty different compared to how we have grown and the new winery we built and our beautiful new destination tasting room and winery definitely have come from humble basement beginnings. But now I get to make wine in it in a brick and mortar winery.

Lauren Buzzeo 11:10
That’s awesome. And it sounds like in the process, you got so much experience and experience that I think it sounds like you were yearning to have and really, to, you know, be an active participant and to touch every element of the winemaking phase and process, right?

Rachel Rose 11:27
Oh, absolutely. I think anyone who’s run a small business, and especially a wine business knows that you pretty much do everything. And so I used to run the tractors, run the crew. I mean, I’d be the crew leader and then work in the winery in the afternoon and then sell wine. Yeah, pretty much every every hat there is I’ve worn here for Bryn Mawr.

Lauren Buzzeo 11:55
So it sounds like you you found the hats and the things that were maybe calling you way back when you were thinking is there more for me when you were just in the sort of science and biology fields? You found that in wine and in winemaking. I love that.

Rachel Rose 12:12
I most definitely did. And more.

Lauren Buzzeo 12:17
But it’s really cool that it sounds like you came to the industry with one—or not one but a very specific perspective and that being very focused on the science and the technical aspect of the wine industry. And then maybe we’re exposed to a little bit more of what I was saying earlier that that romance and that poetic you know, language surrounding the wine world and consumption. So did it bite you like from first steps in the vineyard?

Rachel Rose 12:51
Yeah, I’ve always loved the vineyard. And the winemaking is just kind of its extension in a way. It’s kind of how I view the whole thing. But I think to to get into this whole question of is wine art, I’m really excited to have this conversation. And I can tell you I’m I’m so happy that you sent me an email letting me know what we’re going to talk about. So I had time to think about it. This was some great dinnertime conversation over the weekend. So my husband who works slash exists in the virtual and acoustic art world, I’ll put it that way, we had a lot of fun talking about this late on Saturday. So to get into it, this is I think where I stand in 2021 on this.

Lauren Buzzeo 13:53
Let’s do it. Get into it.

Rachel Rose 13:57
So the question is, is wine an art? Well, in order to even start that discussion, we have to talk about what art is, right? I mean, we have to define what art is. And that, of course, is a huge debate in and of itself. Who gets to decide what’s art and what’s not art? So, I kind of feel like in order for some thing to be called art, it has to occupy a space that allows for some kind of mental or emotional space. And maybe I can even add some kind of enhancement to that physical space or an emotional space. So it’s got to be able to provoke thought or an emotional response to be art. That’s kind of what I would consider to be art to begin with. And I would say to give pleasure is an emotional response as well. So I think it’s something when when we talk about art, I feel like most people go to visual art. And we’re kind of thinking of like a canvas, right, and we’re going is this art, or is this not art? But the romance of it, of course, is the end product, because that’s provoking emotion, or thought. But there is absolutely a component of skill to art, you absolutely must possess technical skill, to be an artist and to produce art. Because you can have all the fantastic ideas in the world. But if you have no means of representing them, then you’re lost. I kind of feel like maybe a better way to frame for me at least thinking about wine, as potentially an artistic outlet, or as a piece of art itself, is to kind of think about more like music, where I think it’s more clear, the skill that’s required. Whereas sometimes with visual art, people can look at like abstract art and be like, whatever, that doesn’t take any skill. But with audio or acoustic art, it’s very clear to me at least that you have ideas as a songwriter, but yet, you absolutely must possess the skillset in order to bring that idea or that concept to fruition. So, you know, that’s kind of where I would like to start with, is defining what art is, or at least what I think art is.

Lauren Buzzeo 17:16
Yeah, no, that’s a great place to start and it’s definitely something I was thinking about, as well. So I think we’re on the same, you know, similar wavelengths in that. I guess the place that I landed is something considered art would be something that involves the use of your senses, whether it’s like we were talking about visual art, obviously, using your eyes and your sense of sight, whether it’s music and the sense of sound and audio. And certainly with with wine. With food, they call it the culinary arts. So with wine, you know, you’re using your sense of taste, but beyond that, and using the senses, you’re right, the absorption of that, and the way that you unpack that and think about it, you know, based on your own enjoyment, your own pleasure and interpretation of that experience, your personal interaction with it is to me what would consider something to be art or not. Having that element of a personal, unique interpretation of a product.

Rachel Rose 18:28
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, then the way that I comprehend that is that art must have an audience. Right? And so someone must receive that and someone must have an emotional or sensory reaction to it, because without that individual or that person, but of course, it’s not art. It’s like a few different moving parts here, and then that part about in order to be our, it has to have an audience to interact with. I think that could be also like, is that individual capable of having something like wine be thought provoking? Can a certain individual—do they actually receive pleasure from wine? Can they perceive the same sensory components to a wine? I mean, I think about whether or not we’re talking about an individual who may have problems with smell. So would it be art for that person? Or conversely, maybe someone who does not drink wine for pleasure or conversation or for thought that maybe someone just looking to be intoxicated? Well, maybe it’s not art for them. So it’s like, there’s a few different moving target targets here. What is the piece that is art? And then who is the receiver? And are they able to either mentally or physically be stimulated by it, right?

Lauren Buzzeo 20:34
Right. And is that desire even there, which is a really good point. That, you know, you and I talking about this, or you know, the editors of Wine Enthusiast, or various winemakers talking about this, of course, we have, you know, a deep passion and love of wine, we want to know everything about it, we want to think about it, we want to talk about it all the time. But that’s probably not true for everybody out there. Some people might just, you know, want to kick back with their glass at the end of the day, maybe feel a little bit of the effects and, you know, move on with their life.

Rachel Rose 21:08
Yeah, or even people who have like lost or tense sense of taste or smell. So does that bottle of wine cease to be art because the person consuming them can’t perceive it?

Lauren Buzzeo 21:26
Yeah, absolutely. The accessibility question and how everybody’s coming to the table with their different perspectives and different abilities. I think another element of that is talking about the packaging. We’ll go back to the winemaking maybe in a minute. But as we’re talking about the different senses and access points for what could be considered art, packaging and wine packaging is definitely a part of that. So for you, how important do you think that is to get across this feeling, this impression of what the bottle holds?

Rachel Rose 22:05
As much as I want to say it doesn’t matter and it shouldn’t matter….

Lauren Buzzeo 22:10
It does.

Rachel Rose 22:11
It does. But the other part of my brain, absolutely geeks out on wine packaging. So I get to make one to two wines each year, under what’s called the innovation series. And they’re wines where I just get to just let loose and come up with ideas or get to try out new varietals, different techniques. And every year, the bottle has a brand new label redesign and a lot of work. But I have a ton of fun doing it. I mean, this year, I am so pumped on these wines. I mean, I had so much fun picking the different foil colors to match the artwork, I even got some awesome bottle wax that match. I mean, I put so much work into it, but I really do love it. And I do think it’s part of it, because it’s kind of like the cereal box effect. Like most people leave the bottle of wine on the table and they look at it. And you want to you want to be visually stimulated as well.

Lauren Buzzeo 23:32
Absolutely, just like plating for food, you know, that’s the first impression that you get right there. And you want it to be pleasing and attractive. You want it to ignite, that, you know that excitement and stimulate your senses. And visually, that’s the first chance you get before someone even tastes what’s inside of the bottle. So I feel you and I feel your desire to want to say it’s not that important, but I think we all know that it really is. And I think it’s also interesting because it ties into a little bit of what you were talking about before in terms of your excitement and in considering that there are so many different elements to winemaking and what goes into it and that includes you know, regionality and different terroir and also the history. So I think there’s another romantic element to wine if you will that also perpetuates this idea of it being art in that it’s possible that it’s an expression and capable of capturing a moment in time. In that individual bottle, or even a few bottles, a period style that translates to current trends. There’s another layer that’s that’s parallel to what we see in different art forms, like in visual art, you know different eras of style and production. That wine is capable of doing that and offering that time capsule as well.

Rachel Rose 25:04
Yes, absolutely, it can. And I think that perfectly aligns with kind of this, I would say like my third concept about this, is that it’s like what kind of wine are we talking about here? Are we talking about homogenous, year to year, strict protocol, mixed appellation, mixed blended out differentiation? Or are we talking about more, I’ll call it observatory, like where you’re observing what’s happening in your microclimate? Or you’re more reactive as a winemaker and you’re trying to showcase something inherent about the land or the grapes. And it’s much more respective, I would say, of the land and their grapes. So if we’re talking about I think, what is considered to be fine wine, I think that this discussion can be a little easier. Because, and not to say that you can’t make large scale that can be respective of place and style, but I think that more often than not, we see that with the perhaps smaller producers and or styles of wine.

Lauren Buzzeo 26:51
Yeah. Because I think the argument would be that there is definitely a ton of technical skill and I would venture to say, an art form, for a winemaker to create a consistently styled offering a la non vintage Champagne, year after year after year—that’s hard work. And that is an art form in and of itself. But I do agree that I think generally when we’re talking about this, again, this sort of overly like romanticized wine is art concept, it is sort of easier to apply it to, you know, whatever you consider fine wine. Styles, bottlings, and even I wonder regions. I mean, you talked about maybe some more like, micro terroir, microclimate, hyper specific bottlings. Do you think that they’re may be more inclined to be expressive in in that kind of way as an art form?

Rachel Rose 28:06
Well, I think kind of where I was going with that is, as a producer, if you are inclined to maintain those differences, and to respect them or accentuate them, then that is going to be different than if you’re trying to make a uniformly styled wine, year in and out. So I think it can be said for vintage. I think it could be said for region. I think it could be said for if a producer is trying to keep varietal distinctness, varietal distinction. So any one of those points if, if it’s a key tenant of the winemaking to really try to augment or change their winemaking to bob and weave with those characteristics, then I think you’re finding you’re way more into the artistic realm, I would say. Whereas if you’re just following a recipe, for example, like if you’re just following a protocol, and it doesn’t matter where the crabs come from, or what they taste like, you’re just following a protocol for making the wine. Then I would say that would be in the not so artistic realm.

Lauren Buzzeo 29:39
Right. So I love this because you’re venturing into sort of elements of winemaking that you would say might be considered more artistic and creative, as opposed to those that are more you know, scientific and based in numbers and analysis and reads and technical data. So what I guess what I’m curious to hear your thoughts on what elements of winemaking would you consider to be more artistic and creative, as opposed to those that are more grounded in science?

Rachel Rose 30:18
Um, well, I can only speak from my own process.

Lauren Buzzeo 30:23

Rachel Rose 30:24
But I’ve got a few different ways I approach making a wine. I’ll consider a wine that I’ve never made before. So that’s probably the most easy to kind of walk through because I do it now every single year. So that begins in a very creative place. In that I need inspiration. I often try to taste wines outside my normal, not comfort level, but just wines that I don’t normally drink. And I sometimes I’m just struck with something and I am like, wow, I really, really like something about this wine, whether it’s the wine style, or the aroma, or just whatever it is. So I would say that whenever I’m working on developing a wine, I start in a very creative place. It kind of has that same warm, fuzzy-fuzzy feeling as like a really good idea.

Lauren Buzzeo 31:36
Uh huh.

Rachel Rose 31:37
So that’s when I know I’m in that hemisphere of my brain. And I’m visualizing as well, I’m imagining what that wine texture would be like. I’m thinking about maybe the varietals I want to work with to achieve certain aromas. Or maybe sometimes I’m working with a set of grape varietals that I know I want to work with. And then I start envisioning how those blends will come together. And it’s all just creative thought.

Lauren Buzzeo 32:11
This is very artistic sounding. It’s like you’re building a palette and figuring out the color scheme that you want to put on the canvas. And yeah, absolutely.

Rachel Rose 32:20
Yeah. And but it is, it’s mental. I also take notes about things that, for example, I have always wanted to make an orange wine since probably about 2011. And so one of the first wines I made at the end of innovation series was a wine that ended up being called an Amber. We called it Amber. And that started because I was like, okay, the thing that I like about some of these orange wines are the phenolics. But I don’t want it to be quite as aggressive. So I want like a soft, weighty palate. And then I’m like, ‘What varietals can I work with because I want prettier, more delicate aromatics.’ So I’m going to work with Pinot Gris. Okay, and what do I want to do to give a beautiful floral lift, and I’m like, ‘Oh, maybe I can find, maybe I can get some Muscat.’ And so it’s kind of like developing maybe a recipe or something in your mind. But it’s always gonna come back to sensory of what I’m looking for. And so once I have the concept down, then I actually do get pretty technical. I then write myself a kind of flow chart protocol. I go into my press cycles, I figure out approximately—so for this particularly particular wine, I knew that I really wanted a softer palate than anything I’d ever tasted in orange wine. And so how do I get from that concept to how the wine actually tastes? Well, that’s where the technical aspect and that’s where the skill comes in. And there were a number of pivotal decisions made between point A and point Z, that influenced that ultimate vision. And I can tell you, they were all very technical in origin in that I said, ‘Well, I’m going to need to take press fractions, so I’m going to need three tanks for this wine.’ Okay, how am I gonna get three tanks? Okay, well, I’ll have to do some logistics there. Okay, next point. Okay, I’m only going to take it up to .8 bar Okay, how many rotates am I going to do? Well, let’s go back. Let’s let’s look at some old records. Let’s maybe taste some old wines. Oh, okay with this wine, I’m not going to roll the press at all. Okay, moving right along. Um, am I going to barrel ferment this? Or do I want 100% full contact? Okay, well, actually, I am going to barrel it down while it’s still fermenting. Okay, next step. Okay, what kind of barrels am I going to use? Well, I really, really want good tannin integrations. So should I use puncheons? No, not enough oxygen transmission rate, Megan to use Burgundy’s? Nah, I’m afraid of a little too much wood. Ooh, I’ve got those old cognac barrels, I can use. Oh, perfect. Okay. And so I’m taking all these tools and using them. And it’s so funny trying to explain to people what kind of winemaker I am. Because I have a really hard time with that. Because I am a very meticulous winemaker. And especially with my white wines, there are certain things that need to be done at certain points. However, the part that maybe slips in as artistic during the making of wine for me, or maybe this is technical, I don’t really know. But like when you taste a wine that is in process, and it’s not what you think it should be. It’s deciding whether or not you’re okay with that transgression. And that it’s actually working. And you can visualize and see a space for that. Or, you were like, nope, gotta get in line got to get back to how I planned. And so at each little micro fissure of this of the winemaking process, and frankly, there are so many decisions to be made, the more you think about it, the more there are. There’s an infinite amount of decisions that can be made. And it’s only limited by your bandwidth to think of those questions. So that in and of itself is, I think, also kind of creative, because you have to be able to access that part of your brain and not just shut off ideas. But also just decision making in and of itself. Is decision making artistic or this decision making technical?

Lauren Buzzeo 37:55
Which is super interesting to me, because if I think about you know, a hot topic right now, which is natural wines and, you know, the creation of the winemaking that goes into natural wines and people thinking that they’re more authentic, possibly, or potentially more artistic creations. But hearing you know, your experiences and you talk about the process. And actually the thought that goes into each step of that process, it kind of juxtaposes what might be assumed vis a vis natural wine being a more, again, creative or authentic expression in some way.

Rachel Rose 38:37
Yeah. That is definitely a whole, another very, very existential conversation. Oh my gosh, I just thought I wonder keeps me up.

Lauren Buzzeo 38:57
So tell me, do you think natural wine is art?

Rachel Rose 39:04
You’re trying to get me in trouble.

Lauren Buzzeo 39:07
This podcast just got real good. Just kidding, you don’t have to answer, you can save it for another time. I just wanted to point it out just based on everything that you’re saying, you know, that you’re only limited in the creativity and the process, you’re only limited by what you know, and the steps that you take throughout the process. And the questions and the considerations that you want to dive into along that timeline and all of the breakouts and fissures as you said that that can happen throughout that process. Which again, was just like, it just clicked for me that’s super interesting based on the way that I think a lot of people perceive natural wines. But we can move on from there. So at the end of the day, tell me, do you generally consider your wines as art? Or as a scientific product?

Rachel Rose 40:11
It takes both. It absolutely takes both because without the artistic, creative vision, you cannot make interesting wine, in my opinion.

Lauren Buzzeo 40:34

Rachel Rose 40:35
But, without technical skill, you cannot see that to its end. You absolutely have to have both. It’s both.

Lauren Buzzeo 40:47
Ladies and gentlemen, we’ve answered the question. Is wine art? Yes, but not exclusively. The answer may be that it is science-based art. But it is still art nonetheless.

Rachel Rose 41:04
Yes, I would agree with that. I would agree with that.

Lauren Buzzeo 41:10
Well, I think we’ve landed at a beautiful place here. So I love this answer, because it means that maybe it’s okay when people like to overly romanticize wine and wine consumption and use this sort of flowy, ethereal, beautiful language to describe the wine. I’m guilty of it myself, I think we all are because it’s that passion that comes out, right? And you’re just so excited and stimulated by it. So you know, but that’s that’s very much how people describe art and things that they are passionate about, and that have sparked that inside of them. So I think it’s safe to say that we can continue to use that type of language around wine.

Rachel Rose 41:55
Yes, and I mean, it’s so hard because like with visual art, nobody talks about the artists that—well, maybe they do talk about this. It is kind of romanticize with artists that they can just be kind of crazy Mad Hatters and stay up until all hours of the night. But they maybe don’t talk about art school. And maybe they don’t talk about meticulously selecting palette colors. And drawing and redrawing lines are some of the actual skill that is required behind the scenes of creating a beautiful piece of visual art.

Lauren Buzzeo 42:32
That’s true, the process is not necessarily part of the conversation for people to enjoy or appreciate the art. But for some reason that is kind of intertwined with wine and wine enjoyment. Well, Rachel, I think that we’ve landed at a beautiful place. And you know, I love that we can continue to say that, you know, wine is art, but there is science behind it. And I think that you’ve brought to light for a lot of people just how much science there is behind every step of production from field to glass for winemaking. So thank you so much for sharing all of your valuable insights and experiences with us. It was really a pleasure.

Rachel Rose 43:19
All right. Well, thank you. This was a lot of fun. Thanks for having me.

Lauren Buzzeo 43:25
So there you have it. Thanks to its stimulation of so many of our senses and the personal interaction and interpretation that each of us has with it, I think we’ve come to the conclusion that wine is art. Though there’s clearly a serious science-based technical skill needed to make those creative visions come to life. I’m definitely ready to pop open a bottle of Rachel’s stunning Riesling and appreciate all of the meticulous decisions she made to create that piece of art. And I hope that you can raise a glass to toast the art of your favorite winemaker too. Subscribe to the Wine Enthusiast Podcast on iTunes, Google Podcasts, Stitcher or wherever you find your podcasts. If you like today’s episode, we’d love to read your review and hear what you think. And hey, why not tell your wine loving friends to check us out too. You can also drop us a line at For more wine reviews, recipes, guides, deep dives and stories, visit Wine Enthusiast online at and connect with us on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter @WineEnthusiast. The Wine Enthusiast Podcast is produced by Lauren Buzzeo and Jenny Groza. Until next episode, cheers.