Wine Enthusiast Podcast: Is There Anything New to Say About Rosé? | Wine Enthusiast
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Wine Enthusiast Podcast: Is There Anything New to Say About Rosé?

Ever since the rosé movement exploded onto the scene in the U.S. in the early aughts, production and production has continued to rise worldwide. It’s proven that it’s much more than a summertime poolside libation, with fans from novice wine lovers to pop culture icons and celebrities.

Throughout the novel coronavirus pandemic, rosé was a gateway for many wine consumers to travel the world through their glasses. The style’s rainbow of offerings includes selections that are versatile, affordable, approachable, attractive and food-friendly.

In this episode, Associate Managing Editor of Digital, Emily Saladino, speaks with sommelier and natural wine consultant Margot Mazur as well as The Lotus and the Vines founder Larissa Dubose. The three discuss how climate change and last year’s wildfires found winemakers pivoting from full-bodied reds to rosés made with minimal skin contact. They also explore rosé’s recent history, popularity and where might the great pink wave be off to next. Dubose highlights the importance of exploring food inclusivity by pairing rosé with dishes from different cultures and locales, like the Caribbean and Philippines.

For a cheat sheet on how rosé is made, consider this quick guide to rosé wine. Or, check out this article for recommendations of recently reviewed rosés worth picking up today. Still a sucker for French classics? Brush up on the country’s top regional styles here, or read about these fortified rosés that march to the beat of their own, stronger drum.

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Episode Transcript

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting.

Speakers: Lauren Buzzeo, Emily Saladino, Larissa Dubose, Margot Mazur

Lauren Buzzeo 0:09
Hello and welcome to the Wine Enthusiast Podcast, your serving of drinks culture and the people who drive it. I’m Lauren Buzzeo, the Managing Editor at Wine Enthusiast and in this episode, we’re talking about everyone’s favorite summertime wine: rose. In the latter half of the last decade, the wine style seems to be everywhere, from countless glasses to crossover gins and ciders, as well as spawning its own mansion and inspiring countless slogans and hashtags. #rose or #yeswayrose, anyone? So did rose jump the proverbial wine shark? Or is there still room for discussions about quality, identity and innovation within the wine style? Associate Managing Editor of Digital Emily Saladino speaks with sommelier and consultant Margot Mazur and educator Larissa DuBose of The Lotus and The Vines, to explore the style’s recent history, popularity and where might the great pink wave be off to next. But first, a word from today’s sponsor. Total Wine & More is ready for summer. They’ve got all your pours for the great outdoors, like their top 12 wines under $15. Raise a glass to America with our star-spangled selection of sips made in the USA. Then taste your way to a new flavor right, like ready to freeze cocktail pops and fun fizzy hard seltzers—lime, pineapple or peach anyone? Here’s a recipe for a delicious summer evening. Take smoked ribs, good friends and just add Bordeaux. Let your imagination go grill crazy. From good old fashioned hotdogs to turkey burgers with all the toppings, you can’t go wrong with Chardonnay. And when it comes to seafood, salmon and tuna swim nicely with fruity and fresh reds. So no matter if you’re grilling, chilling or both, you’re sure to find cool prices on over 8000 wines, 4000 spirits and 2500 beers in store or at

Emily Saladino 2:12
Hello, this is Emily Saladino of Wine Enthusiast, I asked two brilliant wine professionals to join me today to discuss rose. I want to get a sense of its place on both our national wine continuum and within US culture overall. Given how massive rose has become over the last 20 years, what I hope to determine is: Is there anything new to say about rose? Larissa DuBose works as a senior on premise manager for luxury wines, and is the founder of the education and events site, The Lotus and The Vines. Larissa, thanks so much for being here.

Larissa DuBose 2:46
Thank you for having me, Emily. I’m excited.

Emily Saladino 2:48
Likewise, likewise. And Margot Mazur is assembling a and wine educator based in Boston. And she’s recently written some great pieces for Wine Enthusiast as well. Margo, appreciate your joining us.

Margot Mazur 3:00
Thank you.

Emily Saladino 3:02
So what I’d love to do today is just sort of chat about the different iterations of pink wine culture in the US. Let’s go back to the turn of the millennium. It is cocktail bars are becoming mixology hubs and craft beer is taking off. And US drinkers are beginning to see rose as something beyond white Zin. Larissa, how would you categorize rose culture in the US during this time?

Larissa DuBose 3:23
This question is really interesting to me, because at the time where I started to see rose really pick up in popularity, it was still very much taboo, that if you saw pink wine that it was considered white Zinfandel. And I remember a restaurant that I worked at at the time, it was a fine dining seafood restaurant in Baltimore. And the staff just like everybody just gave this collective like a frustration when the corporate mandate came out that we had to have a white Zin on the menu. But the corporate mandate was like that’s a sell that we’re missing, so we got to have it. And this was about like 2008 or so actually. And so then fast forward like a year later, and I’m at a restaurant on my own, and I see a rose and I just got so excited, but there was this energy with me like looking around wanting people to know this is rose. This is rose, this is not white Zinfandel, because it was still this taboo that you know it was white Zinfandel. Granted, it has a wonderful history and you know, where would we be without it? But it was still very much taboo, like you weren’t completely cultured if you were still drinking white Zinfandel as a wine lover or wine enthusiast. So it was really interesting to me from around that 2008, 2010 space. And again, this is in the Baltimore the DMV area, DC, Maryland, Virginia, where I started to see rose pop up on the wine lists and then from there, it just kind of boomed and I know we’ll get into that conversation as we progress but it literally went from white Zinfandel ‘ew’ to you know, you’re so fancy if you know about rose. Are you hip yet? And then as we know what it is now it’s just you know, it’s everywhere.

Emily Saladino 5:13
I loved what you said about how you know it was sort of embarrassing like white Zin was embarrassing and I agree that—like no disrespect, right? If you are a white Zinfandel drinker, you live your life, you be happy. There’s no judgment on my part, but I do feel like there was a little bit of a reputation associated with it. I almost compare it to Lambrusco. I think that like because of import and just the culture that surrounded Lambrusco for a long time in the US. That was kind of seen as similarly like more of a fruit juice than a serious wine.

Larissa DuBose 5:45
Yes, I still hear the jingle. I will not sing the jingle from the ’80s for Lambrusco. Yes, absolutely. I’m calling it that because why do I still remember that jingle?

Emily Saladino 5:59
Right? Advertising. You know, there’s some really successful advertisers out there. Margot, what would you say changed? Larissa, I love how you set us up on like a sort of chronological POV like, what would you say changed around the do we say the teens, like the 2010s? From the early aughts to the teens?

Margot Mazur 6:16
Yeah, it’s really interesting to think about. I think that what ended up changing, you know, white Zinfandel and wines like the Las Lanzas and like the Mateus of back in the day, they really set us up to have this kind of rose, for lack of a better word, revolution, right? Where folks are starting to realize, okay, you know, there’s actually a really big market for rose here. People like that style of wine, we don’t have to use just our, you know, grapes that we didn’t want to use for our fine cuvees. We can actually make this into a standalone product that is a fine line in and of itself. And I think that’s kind of where we are now is we have all these amazing roses out on the market. And with the kind of movement of more natural wines or low intervention wines as a big marketing push in itself, right? That community around these types of wines, folks are more excited about roses now of any kind. And you know, when I used to hear a lot from folks at the bar, oh, you know, I only drink light colored roses, right? I only drink salmon colored roses. Whereas now I think that’s changing quite a bit. I mean, folks like Evan Lewandowski, for example, making some really bolder roses that people are really excited about. And I think that there’s really that change coming about. It all doesn’t have to look the same anymore. It can be different. It can be exciting. It can be fine wine.

Emily Saladino 7:39
Oh, I love what you said about the color. I think that is really important. I almost wonder if in the sort of early 2010s to mid-10s period, that like you wanted to differentiate yourself from it being something that was candyish. And so you’re like, I like the paler, the better belly, pink salmon. And I feel like that those were the words that I used to hear a lot. And I agree, first of all, it’s just like any time we we limit what we drink, we are like, obviously, by nature of that cutting some things out. But also, there’s just so many really great, really cool roses that that sort of run the gamut of color. And like what do you think that is? Is it my perception? Which is that it was wanting to differentiate yourself from the white Zins? Is it it was it just like those were the Provencal ones that we were getting and so people were like, pale it is. What do you think that is?

Margot Mazur 8:33
Yeah, I mean, I think that where the United States really started to get those wines is that Provincal culture, right. And then having these like Provincal roses on a pedestal, I think folks were more drawn to that sort of color. And then this kind of assumption came about that, you know, the darker roses are going to be sweeter and stickier something like that. And so folks decided to kind of move away from that and say, ‘Oh, you know, as I’m moving forward into being a wine enthusiast, actually, you know, I’m not drinking these darker wines anymore.’ And, you know, it’s kind of like more sophisticated, for lack of a better word to drink these kind of paler color roses. But um, you know, rose color doesn’t have that much really to do with what kind of wine it’s going to come out to be in the end of the day.

Larissa DuBose 9:25
Margo, you bring up a great point, too. And I said, you know, as we come into 2021 right, and the world is opening back up. I think that we have a much more educated consumer when it comes to wine enthusiasts. And I think that, that progression of, ‘Well I only drink Provincal style rose because it’s this color’ versus understanding now how this evolution has taken place that rose is more than just seasonal. It’s more than a poolside wine, it’s something that you can easily pair with food and drink on it. And as you mentioned before, is very serious. These are wines that are very well made, they have their sense of place. And you can literally go almost anywhere in the world and find a great quality rose. So I think that as the consumer becomes more informed the idea that oh, well, I only stick with the pale the salmon color rose versus the more darker color roses. I think that that’s something that has been a very cool thought process. And even looking at it from a seasonality stance, when you look at the menus, menus normally would only have rose for a certain amount of time. Now, it’s a year round thing, because that’s what the consumer is asking for.

Margot Mazur 10:43
Absolutely. And I think that even to jump into current events, with the wildfires happening in California and an Oregon, we’re really seeing a lot of winemakers start to pivot in the way that they make wines. For example, I mean, this is a great example, Brianne Day was going to make a Pinot Noir out of the grapes that she had access to, and then when the wildfires came about, she and many other winemakers had to pivot into making short skin contact rose. Because they essentially were saying, well, there’s a lot of smoke in the skin. So instead of making our regular cuvee, let’s make a rose. So that we get very little skin contact, the juice is still clean, and we’re able to create a fine wine. And so I think that as climate change continues. And you know, hopefully, this is the last major wildfire season we’ll ever have, right. But as that continues, folks are going to be making a lot more roses coming out of California. And that tells a story of current events. And it tells the story of climate. And I think that’s pretty exciting.

Emily Saladino 11:45
I absolutely love that I often think about whenever we publish something where someone speaks about something relating to current events, they’ll be some people on social media, many people love it, but there’ll be some people who are like, keep politics out of my wine. And I always think that’s sort of hilarious, because like you can’t separate food and beverage from, you know, even wanting to not engage the climate crisis is itself a political point of view. And so I think you you raise a really interesting point, you both do, where you’re speaking about the ways that our embrace of more styles of rose. it coincides with our confidence as wine drinkers. And I mean, all of us as US wine drinkers. And at the same time it, it reflects both a bit of a continuum of us wine drinking culture, but also just of what’s happening in the world. And that is, it’s climate change. Its imports, exports, you know, there’s so much caught up in, in how and what and why we drink?

Margot Mazur 12:49
Absolutely. And, you know, it’s interesting that you say that, that folks have been saying keep politics out of my wine because climate change is not a it’s not a political issue. It’s an environmental issue that affects us all. But yeah, I think that’s a big reason why a lot of us got into wine in the first place is that wine is not just agriculture, it’s everything. I mean, its people, its culture, its history, its climate, its environment, it’s all of those things combined, and rose really tells a story of kind of all of those things.

Larissa DuBose 13:24
Wholeheartedly agree. You know, I’m a huge proponent of the idea that, you know, wine is a personal passport. When we come off of a year where we could not go anywhere, for obvious reasons, and to be able to travel the world through a glass is something that’s very compelling. It’s something that’s very unique to wine. And I think that with rose, you know, you have a better opportunity to to dive even more, whereas I only like Sauvignon Blanc, but you have never heard of Sancerre, right? So if you love Pinot Noir, do you know that Sancerre is actually, you know, a rose that you can get from that particular region as well. Like, it just gives you so many opportunities to explore more. And again, going back to that more informed consumer, I think that people are more open to trying new things. And I think that’s why we’re seeing not only this acceleration of, ‘I want to try more outside of my typical box, I want to try everything because at this point, I couldn’t go anywhere. So if I have to go somewhere through wine, let me try it all.’ So as opposed to I think in the beginning with consumer trends with retailers we’re seeing where people just kind of sticking with what they know because it was safe. I think that as the year of 2020 continued, and people continue to consume wine because there wasn’t anything else to do, they wanted to explore more. I think Rosie just kind of fit real snugly in there because it is a situation where rose is, again, a year round beverage. It’s definitely more than just your summertime libation. And I think that people really discovered that in their discovery of learning more about wine last year.

Emily Saladino 15:10
That’s super interesting as well. I’ve thought of it the other way I’ve thought of it as because roses, it’s very approachable because it did have this reputation of being like what you drink by the pool, even if by the pool is just a state of mind. I like that in addition to that, and in addition to the accessibility of rose, it also then becomes a portal in a different sense, right? Like if you think of yourself as a US only wine drinker, you tend to just drink wines from California. Well, now there’s all of these California roses to try. Or if you think of yourself as an Old World person, you know, there’s all of these different roses that you could try from so many different wine regions across Europe and the world. And I love the the idea of it being a passport because I agree, I think wine in general has that quality because it is a global agricultural product. We think of it as being extremely tied to the both the earth and the people who make it. So I love that perspective of it as as the passport.

Larissa DuBose 16:08
I traveled a lot last year, even though I didn’t travel.

Emily Saladino 16:14
Yeah, yes. I love it. I love it. And so, you know, we’ve, we’ve touched on it a little bit, but how would you characterize when rose just hit, you know, when it was no longer even like you had to be into wine? It was like, you know, it was bigger than all of us. Like, how would you kind of categorize what that movement looked like.

Larissa DuBose 16:38
To me, it was an explosion, it literally felt like it came out of nowhere, like in the beginning, again, around the the teens, if you were drinking brozek you were considered to be hip as a wine enthusiast. And then all of a sudden, I mean, between social media, and everything in between, it just came it just blew up. And then you have all these different iterations. Now we have the canned rose. We have, you know, box rose. We have the it’s not box wine it’s cardboardeaux if you’re fancy. But yeah, like it just it literally I feel like it just blew up overnight. And it was definitely around that 2015 era. Like I knew when one of the wineries that I represent when they introduce a rose for the market from a national footprint perspective. I’m like, Oh, yeah, rose is here to stay. Everyone’s doing it now. But then more importantly, how do you fish out the really good rose versus the me too rose? The rose that, ‘Oh, I see this wave happening. I want to hop on too.’ really trying to figure out and hash out the difference because there’s a lot of rose that’s what really well made. And there’s a lot of rose that’s not well made. But it was literally for me, it seemed like a sonic boom, one day you were you know, one of the cool kids if you knew about rose as a wine that you could enjoy and then the next thing you knew everybody was drinking it at the pool.

Emily Saladino 18:04
Yes, it’s so true that massive, massive explosion, it really went far. It went into all corners. And and you’re completely right, because it was you know, it’s economically a pretty good wager, right? Like you don’t, it doesn’t take a lot of time as opposed to other wines to make. It’s a relatively quick production process. And you’ve got this built in market. So you’re right there were—there are so many fantastic pink wines. There are some really bad ones. Like anything that’s widespread, there’s diversity within the category, right? And Margot, I’m interested, you know, I know you worked in a wine bar. And so I’m interested particularly in the natural space and the natural wine space, how did you see the boom kind of playing out over there?

Margot Mazur 18:54
Yeah, I mean, it’s really amazing how much rose we were able to sell each summer. It’s just wild. And I feel like it only gets bigger and bigger as folks, just like Larissa was saying, as folks get a little bit more knowledge about wine, I think they get even more excited about different kinds of rose. So I think that for me, what I’ve really seen is folks getting excited about different types of rose. Sparkling rose, rose champagne, right? There are all sorts of different types of rose out there that folks can now check out and get excited about and it’s cool to see producers that we love creating really fine and really exciting and really delicious roses.

Emily Saladino 19:35
And what is it about rose that makes it… so I said like part of it is you know there’s a production piece right? But like from a consumer perspective like what makes it so appealing and the broze, the rose all day, you know, why do you think that did take off?

Margot Mazur 19:51
You know, I think that it’s really a conversation about marketing, right? And about the past marketing of rose. We were talking gently about advertising and when you think about kind of the advertising of rose, it’s not a new thing, right? When you look back into like Mateus advertising and Las Lanzas advertising, I mean, they had like Jimi Hendrix on their ads, right? They like spent a lot of money on advertising. And this is back in the 40s, 50s, right? In the 60s, tons of rose advertising. And not to like be really nerdy, but I mean, we could take it all the way back into Provence, and how when vines were planted in Provence, and when folks started getting excited about rose in Provence back in the day, the French would go on vacation in Provence and drink all this rose. And it became this kind of like French vacation wine. And you know what Americans took that and ran with it, right? We were like, hey, vacation, wine, love that, sounds great. People are gonna love it. And it worked. And so all these ads came out around rose that still continued to this day, right. And the whole theme behind that advertising was, hey, this wine is for just lighthearted fun. You don’t have to be too serious. You don’t have to be this like wine collector, you don’t have to know that much about the wine. This is just for fun. Just enjoy it. You don’t have to be a scholar. And I think to Americans that was incredibly popular was it was a great thing to think about. Because even today, I mean, a lot of wine professionals talk about this. A lot of folks who are not in the wine industry, they get nervous going to restaurants, ordering wine, how do I know what to choose? How do I know what to get? I don’t want to get the wrong thing. How do I know it’s the right price, all of this stuff, you don’t have to think about that with rose as an American consumer. You just know, oh, this is rose, I know it’s gonna be fun, delicious, light, I don’t have to worry about tannin, I don’t have to worry about, I don’t know, anything in particular, I can just get this bottle and enjoy it. And so that is where we are now. And I don’t think that’s a bad thing. I think that’s great. Rose is an amazing way for folks to jump into wine, get excited about it without feeling like they’re joining some, you know, scary club that they’re not a part of, they can just enjoy it and go from there. And I think that’s great.

Larissa DuBose 22:07
Margot, you know, you’ve literally nailed it on the head. Approachability, that was the M.O. That was the message, that was the marketing. You have froze, you have rose festivals where everyone has to come wearing pink and white, like it really became a lifestyle. Something that you could easily integrate into your every day. And it wasn’t intimidating. It was light, fun, airy. And, you know, again, that’s where the growth in the evolution of rose has really I’ve seen change, whereas where it’s it was the gateway, it was the gateway, it got you in the door. It’s as someone who may not know that much about wine is trying to learn a little bit more. It was the gateway to get you in the door. And then from there, you start to explore more, right? But I think that the marketing was really genius. It was literally just pushed push. This is so easy, guys, you don’t have to think about this. Just enjoy this. And we have festivals for you. We can freeze it. We can put it in a can, we can do all these things with it. It’s so versatile. Who wouldn’t want to try rose?

Emily Saladino 23:18
Yes, yes, no, it’s true. Right? I made a joke once that I was like, if you put like Robitussin with rose branding people would buy it. I was like this is Rose-itussin. I’m confident it would sell. And you know, I think I really like what both of you said that you touched on something that I have just anecdotally noticed, which is like, I’ll see friends of mine who who aren’t in food and beverage, they’ll just order rose with whatever their having, whatever they’re eating, whatever. Like if we’re at a cocktail bar, I’ll have the rose, you know, it doesn’t even matter because they know it’s fairly reliable. There’s often only one or two on a restaurant or bars list depending on where you are. And so I think it does feel accessible. Like as you said, you don’t have to know a ton about why or worry that you’re going to be asked a lot, quite honestly. And to me, that’s a very telling, like that tells me that perhaps we in wine culture have some, some reflecting to do.

Larissa DuBose 24:16
Absolutely. And you know, Margot mentioned this earlier, too. I mean, wine is intimidating. I always say this, that it’s a soft skill, wine knowledge and wine etiquette or soft skills that when you use the right way, you can really up your personal your professional brand. And so you know, but because there are different nuances and different sound bites that you need to know, in order to be able to present that you know anything or a little bit. Again, the rose movement really helped to kind of break down that barrier to at least create the interest to get someone to push past the intimidation factor that they may have been feeling to discover more to try more wine.

Emily Saladino 24:57
Right right. I love the idea of that. Have it being the sort of the soft skill and it is, you know it very much is it’s something that for a variety of sort of socio cultural reasons, we attach meaning to knowing about wine. It’s like if you speak French, you know, you’re just somehow cultured in a certain way that like we can’t quite put our fingers on. And it is really interesting. I think rose kind of opened that up for a lot of people who were like, well, I don’t speak French, and I don’t know the rules of classifications, but like, I like this, it tastes great. And it, you know, it can be a gateway, right? Like, it can make me say, like, ‘Oh, I don’t know where that region of France is’ or ‘I didn’t know California made wines in this style.’ Like I think there’s, there’s again, there’s that passport piece.

Margot Mazur 25:44
Absolutely. I also think there’s, there’s one thing about the marketing that stands out to me is that a lot of this rose marketing was targeted for women, right? Women were a lot of the the audience for rose marketing. And I think that is great, because essentially, these folks were able to say, okay, like, I feel comfortable jumping into this wine world, especially at a time when the wine world was really run by at least in the media, at least by what we saw and who was represented, by white men, right? So for folks to jump into this rose world as that gateway, like Larissa was saying, as a gateway to kind of get to know more about wine and start feeling comfortable with wine. You know, that’s a positive for me.

Emily Saladino 26:30
So true. You know, often when things are marketed exclusively to women, I have this kind of knee jerk thing where I’m like, whatever, we’re all people mann, you know, and I think you’re right, though. Sorry, guys, am I revealing too much? But I think it demonstrates the, again, the diversity of that market, the the value and diversity of the market that exists that’s not necessarily being included or spoken to. I think about who, who’s speaking, who’s being spoken to and why. Like there’s, there’s a couple of different things to kind of unpack there. And I always think that the portmanteau the brose, I think it’s so hilarious. I just I can’t believe it’s real that like, there were so many, I guess there were these hetero men who just were uncomfortable drinking rose, so they had to, like, make sure it was masculine. And that too is telling right?

Larissa DuBose 27:27
Yeah, Real Men Drink Pink, like, okay, it’s wine. It’s wine. It’s wine, guys. It’s okay. It’s safe.

Emily Saladino 27:37
Yeah, you know, we’re all just, we’re all so fragile as as people and as wine consumers, And it does to me, it goes back to that idea of confidence of, you know, not many of us in the United States grew up like on a Chateau. And so we don’t all feel that comfortable with wine, we do attach a certain socioeconomic cachet to it. Then you start kind of getting in your own head and your own way about it, I guess. So I did want to ask just in terms of what’s coming next, like what do we think is next for rose? Margot, you had mentioned a little bit that I loved earlier about the styles that are coming out for often tragic reasons, out of California following such an epic fire season. What do we think is next for rose in terms of both production and consumption?

Margot Mazur 28:25
You know, it’s a really great question, looking to the future in wine can be definitely tricky. But I think that, you know, how we talked a little bit about the wildfire season, I definitely think there’s going to be more around that. And folks thinking about, okay, well, why was this wine made? Right, instead of just how is this wine made? And I think that’s an important part of the story as well. But I also think that I’m excited to see roses coming out from hybrid grape varietals, and not to really stick it to the climate change aspect of this. But I feel sometimes I feel like you can’t talk about wine without talking about climate change, right? But I think that as folks are considering buying land or working land or purchasing grapes, or whatever it is, they’re starting to think, ‘Okay, what should I be planting here?’ Should I be planting vinis vinifera? Or maybe it’s a better idea for me, at least in the United States, maybe it’s a better idea for me to find grapes that are going to be more accustomed to my area that are going to be more hardy to my area, and then think about what’s coming out of those. I mean, I’m really excited to see roses coming out of hybrid grape varieties. I definitely want to shout out a new winemaker here. Her name is Camila Carrillo from La Montañuela up in Vermont, and she’s growing some really amazing hybrid grape varieties. And I think there was one rose I tried from her recently, which I thought was just absolutely incredible. So I’m really excited to see more hybrids, you know, sharing the stage on the on the rose front at least.

Emily Saladino 29:56
That’s super cool. I love the perspective of it being a Good space for hybrid grapes, you’re right, you know, I think of often I have a culinary background. So I often think about things from a food perspective. And, you know, in, in certain parts of Italy, there is innovation, however, it looks quite different from other parts of the world’s innovation, because tradition is so, so, so prized. And so like, you wouldn’t make pesto outside of this sort of geographic radius, because that’s not where pesto comes from, right? And that transfers into other parts of food and beverage, particularly wine. And rose is such a kind of free floating category that there aren’t these hang ups where it has to be made with obviously, there are traditional grapes that go into traditional Provencal style roses, but there is kind of a bit of an open canvas here.

Larissa DuBose 30:49
Absolutely. And you brought up an interesting point, when we talk about food pairings. When I think about the progression of where rose can go, again, we talked about how versatile it is, as a wine, like the food pairing options are limitless, right? And so as you are on a journey as a wine consumer, and a wine enthusiast is like, okay, you get your foot in the door, you find a wine that you like, you find a style of wine that you like, and then as you get to expand your experience with the perfect food pairing, why do I love this wine by itself? Why do I love it even more with food? Or vice versa? Why am I not crazy about this wine, but when I pair it with the right meal, it completely blows my mind because they integrate so well together? So you know, as we continue to talk about how, you know, wine talk and wine language is changing, how are we expanding the traditional pairings from a very Eurocentric defined palate to a more global sense. I think rose fits in beautifully with that, because it’s such a versatile wine, this coming from all over the place that you can really play with the food pairings. And I think again, from a perspective of someone who’s just trying to get their feet wet and learn a bit more about wine, or in a fine dining setting, when you’re looking at talking to the sommelier and trying to figure out what’s going to be the best pairing for the meal that everyone is getting, I think rose is going to be much more appropriate conversation that’s going to be brought up way more, as we see the styles continue to evolve and change. And again, just coming back to that versatility aspect.

Margot Mazur 32:31
Absolutely. I think not a such an incredible point, Laura. So I mean, I think that rose is so easy to pair with all types of different foods. And, you know, I hope that rose will allow folks to have even more conversations about wine and, you know, Caribbean food, wine and African food, wine and South American food, you know, obviously different regions, but I want to shout out some work that thought leader Jahdé Marley is doing around these types of food pairing conversations. I think that so often we talk about, okay, this pairs well with Italian food or French food. I mean, there’s a whole world out there, right? And I hope that rose will kind of align on that.

Emily Saladino 33:15
A great point. I really do love that. It is true, right? We there are certain set pairings that we all have in mind. And then there are certain set pairings that other people have in mind because, you know, I don’t know about you two, but like I didn’t grow up eating oysters with Chablis. I’m sure some people in France did, but like I didn’t.

Larissa DuBose 33:36
No, that was not on the table.

Margot Mazur 33:39
We’re not out here eating foie gras, right?

Emily Saladino 33:43
Great. Right. And you know, it’s it’s I think that’s really, you know, it’s really exciting. It can feel limited. You know, it can feel a little bit intimidating. If you’re like, ‘Oh, well, since I didn’t grow up having oysters and Chablis, I guess I don’t know. I guess there’s no place for me in wine.’ And, I mean, opposite, I think quite the opposite.

Margot Mazur 33:59
Absolutely. And I would love to see more sommeliers I mean, myself included, trying different kinds of food with wine, right? trying different kinds of food and figuring out which pairings they love and shouting out those food pairings so that people who see, ‘Oh, wow, I’ve actually never seen, you know, Filipino food talked about with wine pairings before.’ So people can see themselves reflected in that. And that will open up the wine market for all of us.

Larissa DuBose 34:26
100% agree. That the thought process of you can’t be what you can’t see. The more that we as professionals continue to acknowledge that what the wine world was, you know, being defined as and how we were describing wines and classic pairings doesn’t truly reflect the world that we live in. The more that we open up that conversation and even talking about tasting notes we always me and my girlfriends joke about the gooseberry note that has come up with Sauvignon Blancs from New Zealand. It’s like when’s the last time you had a goseberry, right? But that that was a term that, you know, we were taught when we were getting our education and so, you know, really understanding that, you know, there’s a grand world out there where there’s all these different flavors that you know, if I want to reference a tamarind or sorrel, you know, things that are coming from Caribbean culture, then that would make sense. And that’s an approachable and a way that now I’m educating someone else on something that they didn’t think of. So, all that to say, wrapping that up in a pretty bow, I think that rose really does fit the gamut in really helping to broaden the scope, broaden the conversation, and really helping to allow that global conversation of food pairing go a lot further.

Emily Saladino 35:49
I completely agree. And you know, I wondered if there was anything new to say about rose and I guess there is right? I think we just changed the world just here. No, I do mean it, I do see there’s just being so much potential, and so much further to go within wine. Thank you both. Thank you both so much for joining me and for this conversation you have given me so much to think about. And I hope that we will all be drinking rose together or apart wherever we are the summer.

Larissa DuBose 36:21
Thank you, Emily.

Margot Mazur 36:22
Thank you. This was awesome.

Lauren Buzzeo 36:26
Well, it sounds like there’s still plenty to consider when it comes to the world of rose and the future. It holds from pale pores to vibrant hues, classic regions and varieties to new areas and hybrid grapes. There’s truly a rose for every palate, plate and occasion. So as summer nears and we gear up for warm weather fun, be sure to stock up on this stuff and enjoy the la vie en rose all season long. Subscribe to the Wine Enthusiast podcast on iTunes, Google podcasts, Stitcher or wherever you find your podcasts. If you like today’s episode, we’d love to read your review and hear what you think. And hey, why not tell your wine loving friends to check us out too. You can also drop us a line at podcast at wine mag comm for more wine reviews, recipes guides, deep dives and stories. Visit Wine Enthusiast online at and connect with us on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter at Wine Enthusiast. The Wine Enthusiast podcast is produced by Lauren Buzzeo and Jenny Groza. Until next episode, cheers.

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