Is the Canned Wine Industry Turning Its Corner?

Wine that is canned and bottled is the same, but packaged in different vessels. Right? Not quite.

“There [is] no understanding that you [have] to treat different packaging styles differently,” shares Marian Leitner, founder and CEO of canned wine specialist Archer Roose. You can’t just put the same wine you’d put in a bottle in a can. “Which is upsetting because this is very common knowledge in beer,” she adds.

Many canned wine producers are in the dark about this important fact, which Leitner worries contributes to prejudice against canned wine and the perception that it’s an inherently subpar product. In order to make quality canned wine, producers need to start working with the packaging, not against it. 

A recent study conducted by researchers at Cornell University reveals how it could be done. Canned wines are known to have high concentrations of hydrogen sulfide (H₂S), which can result in off-putting rotten egg smell. By altering the composition of the can, the researchers were able to lower H₂S levels, thus reducing the unpleasant aroma. In other words, canned wine isn’t actually bad. But the vessel is often flawed.

In the episode, we explore the state of the canned wine industry and whether it’s turning a corner. We also dig deeper into the differences between canned and bottled wine, and how the industry can leverage alternative packaging with single-serving offerings in a way that still lowers its carbon footprint.

Listen as we sit down with Leitner to explore these questions and more.

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More Coverage on Alternative Packaging

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• How sustainable is ‘green’ wine packaging?
• Use our canned drink decoder to know what you’re actually drinking.
• Here are the 12 best RTD cocktails to drink right now.

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Episode Transcript

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting.

Speakers: Samantha Sette, Marian Leitner

Samantha Sette  00:09

Hello and welcome to the Wine Enthusiast podcast, your serving of drinks culture and the people who drive it. I'm Samantha Sette, senior web producer here at Wine Enthusiast today, I have the pleasure to speak with Marian Leitner, founder and CEO of Archer Roose to catch you up to speed on all things canned wine. The industry may seem at a crossroads when it comes to canned wine. Is it really worth drinking? A recent study conducted by Cornell University, in coordination with Marian's team, claims it might be so, which leads us to ask, is the canned wine industry turning its corner? What really is the difference between canned and bottled wine? Listen as we explore these questions and more. 

Samantha Sette  00:55

Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today. I'm really excited to have you on the show.

Marian Leitner  00:59

Oh my gosh. I'm so excited to be here, truly. So thank you so much for having me.

Samantha Sette  01:04

Of course. So we already gave our listeners a little bit of an introduction, but why don't you go ahead and tell us more about what brought you here today and to wine?

Marian Leitner  01:13

Oh, absolutely. Well. So my name is Marian Leitner, and I'm the founder and CEO of Archer Roose wines, and honestly, what brought me here today is my love affair with wine really started back as a kid, watching my mom and you know, her friends coming together around a dining room table, drinking wine, rolling up the carpet and listening to Bonnie Raitt just having a great time. The point is is it was always about connection and community for me and creating these safe spaces. And then when I was in high school, I actually lived in Spain through an inner exchange program, and I lived with a winemaker and his family, and that just totally blew up this idea for me about this whole world of wine, because while my I I'd grown up in a house that did drink wine. They didn't really drink great wines, and so having that opportunity to really learn more about kind of what the world of wine was like just changed my life. And ultimately, is what drove me to want to bring a better glass of wine to consumers, and that's what drove me to start our church.

Samantha Sette  02:20

I love this, this motif of you could be a passive wine drinker and drink the wine, right? But then there's something different about really engaging with it as a craft, as a hobby, as something to explore. Because there's just, I mean, the wine comes out every year, there's always something to explore. Totally.

Marian Leitner  02:37

They're constantly pushing the idea of what wine is too. And all of that is just so fun, which

Samantha Sette  02:43

I guess is kind of what you're doing at Archer Roose, because it is, for those who aren't familiar, a canned wine product.

Marian Leitner  02:49

Absolutely, it's definitely challenging the traditional notion of wine and how to drink it.

Samantha Sette  02:54

And so as you started to have this love affair of wine, which I love how you put that, by the way, why canned wine? Where did that come from?

Marian Leitner  03:02

Yeah, great question. So let me just start by saying that I'm not coming for bottled wine. Bottled wine absolutely should exist, particularly for wines that are meant to be bottled age. But the reality is that we're confronted with a climate crisis today, and we all have to make individual choices as a consumer to look how we can lower our carbon footprint, particularly because wine as an agricultural product, is under existential threat. And the reality is that 97% of all wines that are bottom sold within this country are consumed within 72 hours after purchase, and they're less than two years old, so they're not old wines, and we're not aging them. And therefore that really opened up this idea for me of how can we leverage alternative packaging to lower the industry's carbon footprint? And the added benefit of canned wine, for me was that it allowed for an individual serving size. So now you know, didn't have to toss all with yourself around this idea of I'm going to open up a bottle, or whether or not I should if I want to drink the whole thing, or, man, this feels wasteful. Instead, you can just crack a can pour it into a glass, and you can still treat yourself at the end of the day. But in doing so, by electing that format, you're now picking a format that is infinitely recyclable. Most aluminum that's been that's being used today has been in circulation since the 1950s and it's recycled everywhere, whereas glass isn't recyclable, and more than 60% of the municipalities here in the US. So we're solving a consumer problem and at the same time helping you to drink your way to a better, cleaner planet. 

Samantha Sette  04:45

I did not know that about glass. That's very interesting. And when you first entered the canned wine space, were other people doing this? Or was it this new concept that was like anything, there's going to be pushback.

Marian Leitner  04:57

Well, we were one of the first. So it was Underwood. Would it was Sofia and Archer Roose, and then there was some quick follow ons. And a lot of the big players were like, oh my goodness, millennials love to drink cans. Like, let's take advantage of this. But they really missed the mark in two ways. One was that they took a lot of existing legacy brands, and they just put it into a can, thinking that would attract young people to the space. And that's a no no because, like, all the reasons why millennials weren't drinking legacy brands in a bottle, like, just meant that they were not going to reach for it, just because it was a different format. But the second problem was that they didn't make any adjustments to the wine before they put them into a bottle, and they had no understanding that you had to treat different packaging styles differently, which is really kind of upsetting, because it's that's very commonplace knowledge in beer, for example. And so that's kind of what created some of the, I think, bad legacy prejudice that can sometimes exist around canned wine in the space, because people would crack it open and they'd have a bit of a sulfur bomb, and that didn't actually wasn't a it's not a repudiation of the format. It's really just a consequence of that wine not being handled correctly,

Samantha Sette  06:17

Which is so interesting, because I think, from an outsider point of view. Okay, you make wine, and then we're gonna go put it in a bottle, a can, a box, whatever you want, right? But even if that's the same wine in a different vessel, there's there are chemical interactions, things change. So what, like, what is the difference between a canned wine and a bottle wine?

Marian Leitner  06:38

Yeah, so, like, strictly speaking, and it's the same thing that any Brewer will tell you before he puts beer into a glass beer bottle. You have to treat liquid differently whether or not it's put in a bottle or a can, and that's because a bottle is actually much more forgiving a format than a can. A can is hermetically sealed, which means you really need to ensure that this wine has very little imperfections, and you are really controlling for things like sulfur levels, that you really understand all of the different steps that were taken for that grape to end up in your glass. And I say those things. Because, honestly, the best wines that show up well in the can are the ones that are limited intervention and are actually what consumers are looking for today, which is, and I hate to use this term, but in layman's speak, it is cleaner styles of wine because it offers less interaction and also will just allow for kind of like the cleanest experience, and if you control for things like dissolved oxygen and sulfur levels, then truly you can have a wonderful glass of wine.

Samantha Sette  07:50

It's like a chemistry experiment. It takes some intention.

Marian Leitner  07:53

It does it takes real intention and and a very clear idea of what you want that end result to be.

Samantha Sette  08:02

So what kind of wine would do well in a can? I don't know how knowledgeable you are of the process going, but can you even walk us through like, Okay, we made this wine now we need to bring it to a can. What will we do differently?

Marian Leitner  08:12

Yeah, so I want to be clear that, like both reds, whites, sparklings, all of those kind of wines, they all will show up well in a can, as long as they're treated right? So there's a few things around every step of the process. So all of our wines, for instance, are made from organically grown grapes. Copper is a common, common form of intervention, sustainable intervention, in many winemaking regions around the world. But if you put too much copper, spray your grapes with too much copper, that will be something that actually eats into the can. It'll interact with the aluminum, and it'll cause for literally, the can to, like, destruct so that's just one example. So you really have to control and understand what are the different interventions that are being taken down in the vineyard, since you know that this is the format that you want to use. The second piece is in the like packaging process you want to control for dissolved oxygen. This is something that you barely even think about when you're bottling line, but it's something that you have to be laser focused on when you're canning. And of course, the other kind of easiest one to pick on is really thinking through sulfur levels. This has been a huge area of focus for us, and it's something that we are really passionate about, because that, for an example of this would be, if you were bottling wine, you can have sulfur levels of like 30 to 50 parts per million in a bottle of wine. For canning wines, depending on the varietal, you'd look at from like 15 to 25 parts per million. So it's a pretty dramatic difference, and it has a big impact on can

Samantha Sette  09:54

And this is related to the Cornell study that kind of talked about the minimizing sulfur. Levels. Can you talk more about that?

Marian Leitner  10:02

Absolutely. So one of the things that when we decided to get into alternative packaging, we were really passionate that it had to be a replacement product. So what does that mean? That means that nobody wants to drink a glass of wine that comes out of a can just because it's good for the environment. It has to be just as enjoyable as if you're pouring a bottle, like from a bottle of wine. And I know this because, you know, we there's a lot of different alcohols you can choose from if you're searching for that buzz, you drink wine because you love that whole sensory experience. And so that's something that we knew from the get go, we had to safeguard, because we also knew that in trying anything differently, there was a lot of unknowns. So we partnered with the University of Cornell Since 2019 and they've been involved in every testing of our every time we do packaging runs and we package. So think of a typical wine company you would have harvest. You would bottle once a year. We actually can every six to eight weeks. So we're constantly canning throughout the year, and every time, we're collaborating with Cornell and an artist to make sure that the wines following our specs, but also that we understand how every previous canning that we've done, how that line is performing, so that we can continue to make any adjustments on the line that we we need to. And one of the things, the earliest challenges that we were trying to solve was this complaint that we got from our early cannings around some slight sulfur on the nose. And so we partnered with Cornell specifically on understanding this process, and we recently won one of the highest oniology research awards that you can win in this country in recognition of all that work that we did.

Samantha Sette  11:54

And by sulfur, that's that rotten egg smell that is kind of gross when you open up a can.

Marian Leitner  11:59

Yes, that's exactly that. And what we've learned is that for managing sulfite sulfur levels in like canned wine production, we can really actually better maintain freshness in canned wine, but also in wine in general. So what that kind of means is that when we nail all these different components, you can actually get a like, really fresh glass of wine, just as how the winemaker was originally intending it, as opposed to like the fresh wine that actually kind of like mellowed out in a bottle over time. So canned wine actually can provide you even like a truer representation, but we just have to know what to control for,

Samantha Sette  12:41

Yeah, and wine is inherently going to be variable, right? But this kind of takes out that bean bozzle, kind of, whatever that game is, where the jelly beans taste like rotten eggs, and then you don't have to play that kind of hot potato, whatever you want to call it, because this kind of helps ensure the quality. Because, again, you're crafting it with intention, just as you would if you were putting in a bottle,

Marian Leitner  13:01

Absolutely and you put it best, because ultimately, consumers want consistency, right? Like wine is a journey, and we connect to our favorite wines because of the story and the taste and the experience. But there's also a lot of frustration around consumers when they might get one bottle they really love, and then the next one is corked or has gone off for whatever reason. And like by harnessing this, this can be a great vessel, not only for kind of more glue wines, like accessible wines, but even for some natural wines that might be more sensitive to being transported in a bottle. I really think that this research is a milestone, not only for like the canned wine category and being able to assure quality, but to really open up this format as a viable means for how it can be leveraged across.

Samantha Sette  13:54

Yeah. So with that said, What do you think this means moving forward for the industry as whole, whether it be just like canned wine, beer, other beverages

Marian Leitner  14:04

Look, like, I think there's like the basic question, like basic answer to that, which is educating the consumer is super critical for adoption, right? It's like helping to it's allowing the industry to stand behind this new format and say you're going to have a great experience, you're going to have a great quality and like, let's, let's talk to you about, like, why this is a good choice for you. And by the way, it has all these other benefits, meaning it is more a more sustainable option, and will help safeguard this, the future, endurance of this industry, right? But I think there's also a secondary component, which is that we have to recognize that people's drinking patterns have changed, and like the wine industry, has been navel gazing for the last 20 years to like asking questions around, how do we get young people? People to drink more wine. How do we get them involved in the category? They're so much more excited about spirits. How do we get them engaged in wine? And the reality is that we've been completely disconnected from their values. We've been disconnected about what it is that young people are looking for, and they're looking for transparency, they're looking for quality. They're looking for brands that speak to them differently, like that really help you fit into their life. But we also have to recognize that like how people drink has changed, and that means two things. One is the moderation movement is real, but it's also not scary. Like moderation means you can drink, frankly, more often, but you are drinking less. It's just that it gives us an opportunity to connect with the consumer and have them incorporate us into their daily lives. So that's really exciting. And frankly, what canned wine then means is that we can support consumers on their moderation journey. We can allow them to, like, you know, have that glass of wine, you know, whenever they want, but also like they don't have to feel guilty about leaving the rest of the bottle behind. And this also means that we can, instead of forcing the consumer to show up where we want them to, which is a lot of these more kind of traditional settings around drinking wine. We can now engage in the consumer wherever they're spending their time, whether it be like we're part of appreci ski, you know, at Vail mountain, or we are, you know, you're drinking at Dave and Busters, because your kid has a birthday party there, we can show up wherever you are. 

Samantha Sette  16:43

I love that. And even with the moderation movement, it sounds like I mean, as a member of the younger generation, there's a lot more intent when it comes to when you're choosing a product, this isn't just wine, it's also when you're shopping for a sweater, like we care, we care where it comes from, and you're more selective, which is exciting. And thinking about canned wine, I'm curious your thoughts on what is the expectation from the consumer? Is that different from what you would expect from a glass of wine?

Marian Leitner  17:12

I think they don't know. I mean, the reality is that, like, less than 30% of American population have ever tried canned wine. So the reality is that, like I think, they don't know what to expect. They know that they drink a lot of seltzers and cans. They know they drink hard seltzers in cans and beer and RTD, but the wine industry has always been pretty clear that like to drink good wine, you have to come out of a glass bottle, and it's got to be poured really fancy, and all those things. So I think when a can of wine is stressed into their hands, they initially probably think, oh, man, I hope it's good. I hope I'm not gonna regret putting this in my mouth. That's disappointing, that like as an industry, we've already set this expectation where we've really stacked it against alternative formats, when the reality is that, like the history of wine, will tell you that wines always existed in alternative formats, like wine was put in wineskins, and, you know, hung from the legs of soldiers as they marched across Europe. And you know, in most wine drinking societies, you don't even see the vessel that the wine comes in. Your glass just appears at the table. That's because it most likely comes from a bag and box. So, you know, I think as an country, our and the wine industry really needs to rethink a lot of its value set around this and how we want to talk about what is good with the consumer? Because in reality, we want to create a great sensory experience, so a great nose feels good in your mouth, and, of course, tastes good. But it's ultimately up to that consumer to decide what that is and how that is. And so my hope is that when they encounter our wines and they pour them into a glass, you can't tell the difference as to whether it was poured from the bottle. And part of why we've made this research public like we have not kept this for our own IP, is so that others can learn from it too, and we can build this category of alternative packaging together. And not only can we really engage with a new generation of consumers, but also help an entire population assist us in this fight against climate change.

Samantha Sette  19:30

Well said. And a final thought on that and all of this is, you know, is there ever some validity that, okay, maybe a certain wine, and you alluded to this before, but some validity to the fact that maybe a certain wine isn't made for a can. And this isn't just to see both sides, but recognize that there's an ecosystem where both exist and we just like to polarize. So why can't we all work together

Marian Leitner  19:54

100% like this is all about occasions. I mean, there. Is 100% there are wines out there that should never be put into a can. There are wines that are it's the there are 5% of wines that are produced globally that are meant to be bottled aged. Those wines should never be in a can. They should be in a bottle so that they can be best enjoyed when they're ready to be enjoyed. It is not an either or, I'm definitely not coming for all bottled wines. I'm just coming for that everyday drinking wine and challenging this idea that they all merit coming out of a glass bottle. But to your point, why can't we all be friends? Yeah? All right, yeah.

Samantha Sette  20:37

Well, before we start to wrap up here, and thank you once again for all your valuable insight. I feel like I've been learning much, and I'm sure those who are listening can agree and attest to that, but I do have some fun rapid fire questions. If you are a game for that

Marian Leitner  20:51

Okay, I'm settled in. Let's go.

Samantha Sette  20:53

So what is one thing you wish you knew before starting Archer Roose?

Marian Leitner  20:58

Everything? I mean, that's such an unfair question. But I think one of the biggest thing that I wish I had known is that even when you feel like you can't afford it, like hire people smarter than you, because you can learn so much along the way, and it'll have help get you where you're going.

Samantha Sette  21:16

Great lesson. And what is one thing you wish more people knew about wine?

Marian Leitner  21:22

That it was always a historically a democratic drink, and that we've only tried to make it fancy in the last, you know, 50 or 60 years, and that whatever you think is good is good. You don't need a score to tell you that heard.

Samantha Sette  21:40

And what do you think is the next big trend in the drinks world?

Marian Leitner  21:43

I think that we are entering into an age of a lot more, like cross pollination. So like, I'm drinking a lot of like Rose margaritas lately. So I really, I kind of love this, like mixing across different formats to kind of create great, optimal, you know, experiences. And I kind of beginning to see that more and more on a lot of cocktail emnus

Samantha Sette  22:10

Totally, it's an extra creative lately.

Marian Leitner  22:12

It has been.

Samantha Sette  22:14

And we asked this to all of our listeners, but what is in your glass, as in, what's a drink you've been loving lately? You kind of just said one, but,

Marian Leitner  22:23

Yeah, but I'll come up with a different one. I'm gonna give some love to the after dinner drink. I have actually really gotten into amaras lately, and that's just gonna fund such a fun world to explore.

Samantha Sette  22:36

Love it well, once again, thank you so much for sharing this conversation with me. Here's your final chance. If you have any final words, want to plug socials, where can people find you? 

Marian Leitner  22:46

And I would love, I always love to plug so please check us out on Instagram @archerroosewines. You can also check us out at archerroose.com we do. We can ship directly to your door, but we also are available in a lot of your local retailers, so please check us out. But mostly I just want to say a big thank you to wine enthusiasts for having me. This was so much fun, and I love the opportunity to geek out with you guys a little bit.

Samantha Sette  23:17

We want to know what do you think about canned wine? When does it have its time and place? If at all, you can email us your comments, questions and thoughts at podcast@wineenthusiast.com Remember, you can subscribe to this podcast on Apple, Google, Spotify, and anywhere else you listen to your favorite shows. You can also go to wineenthusiast.com/podcast for more episodes and transcripts. I'm Samantha Sette thanks for listening.

Published: September 18, 2024